Buncha frakkin' nonsense, if'n you ask me

Half-seriously, there's a *big* difference between being English-speaking and being solidly literate. And English spelling is no help for any student, whether or not they're native speakers. It doesn't help the folks in the trenches that some students these days think you're questioning their sexuality when you point out a homonym error...

Grammar Nazis: I don't think they have a proper place on this forum, or on almost any forum. I've never seen a single person suddenly go from inability to write properly to fully educated eloquence because someone corrected them on a forum. If you go about correcting someone's grammar or spelling, you're probably just going to offend them, if anything.

Kinjiru-san,

When I criticize somebody's grammar, it's not to help them. It's to make them miserable.

At the risk of possibly upsetting someone, which I do not intend to do, I must respond to the following quote.

I like the theories that our government blew up the towers using demolition explosives. The planes were just a ruse.

I am thinking that if you were there that day, in the shadows of those buildings, saw what happened with your own eyes. You may have a different opinion. Then again maybe it would have reinforced your current opinion, I don't know. At the time, I was in Alexandria Va. making my morning rounds as a Data Collector for the local power company. I know what I saw.

I have seen many people post the same thing and I am very curious. Would anyone care to elaborate and or explore this theory a bit more in detail? Namely, why would the American government wish to try to cripple themselves economically (the towers) and militarily, (pentagon) as well as try to damage the country's Morale? (Capital / White House).... (Flight 93 Sommerset Penn.) I have read many conspiracy theories concerning September 11th but none of them seem to be able to answer that question logically.

I am open to other peoples views and opinions. I would just like a bit more insight as to why most of those who were not in the area, seem to believe these theories. ( I do realize there are others who were there and families who did lose loved ones that believe these theories as well.)

Again I am meaning no disrespect to anyone, I know this is a touchy subject and I felt compelled to respond.

This should get interesting.

I know what I saw.

I was in Pensacola Fl. At NAS Pensacola. Just finished a 10 mile run on the beach. I was cooling down in the barracks lounge when I saw it on CNN. I haven't seen or heard any 'theories'. I wouldn't beleive them if I did. I don't care for the direction this country is going but I accept that it was carried out by whom the gov't said did it.

Kinjiru-san, When I criticize somebody's grammar, it's not to help them. It's to make them miserable.

Duly noted.

But, I don't know that your actions necessarily put you on par with that of the Nazis. I'll let you decide just how you'd like to go to make those with poor grammar miserable, I suppose.

I don't care for the direction this country is going but I accept that it was carried out by whom the gov't said did it.

It is that kind of acceptance that is allowing our country to head in the direction that you speak of... it doesn't make a person unpatriotic to question authority.

The frak you say! Any chance you noted the person's discipline?

No, I missed what he taught, but he was a professor at Oxford, which surprised me because I never would have expected a philosophy like that to come from what is supposed to be a 'prestigious' school.

At the risk of possibly upsetting someone

No offense is taken, Quixen, and I hope I did not offend anyone myself. I was joking. The entire post was rather sarcastic, in fact, to my shame. I apologize for not being clear about that. I'll try to do better.

I had just discovered that there are evidently a LOT of people who do believe the government conspiracy theory, however.

At the risk of offending someone else, I truly believe them to be idiots.

But what do I know? I'm just a backwoods hick with just enough education to realize how ignorant I really am.

GW, would you PLEASE stop making me have to look stuff up in the on-line Webster's. I'm starting to get a complex.

I had just discovered that there are evidently a LOT of people who do believe the government conspiracy theory, however. At the risk of offending someone else, I truly believe them to be idiots.

Well, you are living dangerously inferring that I am an idiot because I don't buy into government/Mossad based propaganda and misinformation. Look how many years it took for info to surface regarding Pearl Harbor and the obvious fact that we somehow 'let them do it' since we had advanced warning of the event. It was deemed necessary to get the American public behind us joining the war. Same situation this time, different coast, that's all. Notice how quick the general public was to go kill some 'habibs' after the towers came down... wrote songs and everything stating to kill Osama... so who do you think the real idiots are now?
Oh, and to trivialize death and killing by making decks of 'wanted cards' and passing them out everywhere... yeah, we're the idiots, uh huh.

look stuff up in the on-line Webster's

The form define:obscure works in any Google search box, AFAIK. IMO, the OED should be free online to everyone. If you have an academic login of some sort, you might be able to sign on to their fancy dictionary, and if you like learning about words, the Oxford English Dictionary is totally worth checking out.

If you actually go to physical libararies, you should be able to spot it b/c it is the only dictionary that occupies the better part of an average reference section bookshelf. The ones in the libarary are much nicer to read than the online or compact editions.

For us low browed folks dictionary.com works OK. Although they are missing some perfectly legitimate words. Just googling (that's one not at dictonary.com) the word you're looking for works fine as well. I actually like the opportunity to look up a word I don't know, although most times it's a word I know how to pronounce but just can't spell.

it doesn't make a person unpatriotic to question authority.

I agree. As a matter of fact, we are supposedly given that right to question. As an American we are given many rights that we take for granted on a daily basis. In contrast, if this happened to be Russia in the 50's and 60's however, this kind of questioning of your government would be down right hazardous to your health.

I believe it is healthy to question... to a point. That is why I am questioning those who believe the conspiracy theories surrounding September 11th. I want to understand them better and why they think the way they do. As I said, I know what I saw and seeing, in my case, is believing.

Pearl Harbor and the obvious fact that we somehow 'let them do it' since we had advanced warning of the event. It was deemed necessary to get the American public behind us joining the war. Same situation this time, different coast, that's all.

Here is the point. "Let them do it". We did not draw the plans up for them, hand deliver them, and choose those who would attack us. This is something they did. The fact of the matter is and more to the point, they were going to try whether we knew about it or not. Did we know? I really don't know the answer to that question regarding Pearl or September 11th.

What I do know is that 4 planes were hijacked by a particular group of individuals. The individuals supposedly belonged to a group that took responsibility for the attack... Publically. Same with Pearl Harbor, we knew who attacked us, it was painted plainly on their military equipment for all to see. Did we know in advance? Some say yes, some no, but we do know who attacked.

So now we must ask ourselves... what do we do? Blame the government for allowing it to happen? Protect ourselves by going after those who perpetrated such a horrible act? Sit around with our fingers in our butts and do nothing and hope it won't happen again? Is it our fault it happened because of our foreign policies? Is it their fault? Do we rip our country apart and begin another civil war? So many questions to ask, so few answers. It is proven human nature to try and understand things we do not, and sometimes... sometimes we make up reasons just so we feel we understand.

Again, I have no idea if we knew or not, and from the theories I have read, I have seen no proof to point me in another direction. I am not a stupid person and do not blindly follow our leaders, I do question. Some things are worth questioning. Some are not. I remember when TWA 800 fell from the sky. I remember the conspiracy theories surrounding the ill fated flight. Because we did not know what happened, people speculated. Everything from a terrorist bombing or stinger missile launch to a U.S military missile fired from a warship in the area. Blaming someone else or blaming ourselves? This is the circle we must live with in America?

Disclaimer: I was just trying to get the ball rolling here. Still haven't gotten any more information than what I already have. I am not intending to single anyone out or offend anyone.

"How about English-first people (Canadians, Americans, Brits, Ausies, etc) who don't know the difference between two / to / too OR their / there / they're.


I didn't do this anywhere did I? Please catch me if I did because I hate it myself. "

Wasn't talking about you, man. Just hate those who do it consistantly.

Kinjiru-san, When I criticize somebody's grammar, it's not to help them. It's to make them miserable.

Exactly.

The whole (stupid) theory that Bush and cronies did 9/11 is so easily disproved. These people are in the VAST minority.
The "film" Loose Change is so easily rebutted it's laughable.

Now, I don't care if you hate the US government hate Bush or Clinton or Giuliani.
What I hate is that these "conspiracists" are letting the ANIMALS who did 9/11 off the hook.
They (the ANIMALS) are people who want the world to live under one theocratic government (theirs) and dumb ourselves down to about the year 700 A.D.

Just hate those who do it consistantly.

consistently

couldn't resist, given the thread.

Q thanks for post #187. It sums up my thoughts nicely as well.

They (the ANIMALS) are people who want the world to live under one theocratic government (theirs)

Is this not what we do as a country? Is this not our 'foreign policy'? The more people I talk to, the more I realize that we as the 'common person' really don't seem to have any input when it comes to our government's foreign relations policies.
There may be better forms of government and there most certainly are worse ones. This crusade to bring 'Democracy' to the rest of the globe is almost akin to the Christian crusades of long ago. The only thing that came from those early crusades was the destruction of knowledge and human life in the name of Jesus (which I highly doubt was the true 'reason' since it is such a contradiction to associate a being who taught love and peace with such barbarity), but this is my opinion. I admit that I haven't thoroughly researched the crusades so I am always open to other ideas.
Well, that should have mixed things up just a little for us. Gives all of you more thoughts to chew on, doesn't it?

The more people I talk to, the more I realize that we as the 'common person' really don't seem to have any input when it comes to our government's foreign relations policies.

In bug fixing terms, this is By Design. I'm no original intent scholar (I find that whole camp to be remarkably un-American, although I hate to use the term). But a reading of the initial Constitution shows two things clearly:

1) The framers wanted numerous strong checks on democratic power.

2) Foreign affairs is clearly not a matter for "the rabble." All non-money power over wars and treaties was placed with the president and the Senate, neither of whom were directly elected by the people. As 2000 taught us, even today we can seat a president who did not win a majority of the popular vote, and the president overwhelmingly dominates foreign affairs.

The real question for me on these points is whether I *want* my democratic share of power (responsibility) over foreign policy. Sometimes it's nice to just submit to an "expert opinion" if you can muster the trust you need to do it.

Beg pardon, but like I said elswhere, I'm a lapsed civics teacher...

The real question for me on these points is whether I *want* my democratic share of power (responsibility) over foreign policy.

Well you should want it, especially if you are actually allowed to utilize it. Some people fail to realize that our 'enemies' don't necessarily hate us as the citizens, but they do hate that we 'allow' the atrocities to continue in our country's name. Not to get religious, but even the bible states that God holds the people of a nation responsible for the actions of their nation. It is easy enough to say that you are powerless, and in some respect you are right, but that doesn't let us off the hook in our foreign neighbor's eyes.
I admit that I don't practice what I preach. I've grown comfortable in my life. Enough so that to give up all that I have to go out and fight against our government just isn't an option for me right now. I don't want to lose all I have, and we all know that anyone who would fight our government would lose all, even if they were the victor.
The 'man' has us where he wants us, make no doubts about it, and he put us here just for the purpose of quelling our resistance to their plans for us.
Here's one for you... just read somewhere that the minimum wage was approved to go up to 7.25 an hour (woohoo). What do you guys think is going to happen to prices when that occurs? Do you honestly believe that you will see a cost of living increase? I know at my company there will be no such increases, as the owner already said so. And then he raised his prices... seriously.

Here's one for you... just read somewhere that the minimum wage was approved to go up to 7.25 an hour (woohoo). What do you guys think is going to happen to prices when that occurs? Do you honestly believe that you will see a cost of living increase? I know at my company there will be no such increases, as the owner already said so. And then he raised his prices... seriously.

Actually I expect prices to go up, the number of low end low paying jobs held by US legal residents to go down, the number of jobs in the US held by illegal aliens to go up and I expect the number of illegal aliens crossing into the US to go up dramatically.

The proposition that increasing the minimum wage will affect what the low end wage earner will be paid is largely dependent on the idea that we have an above board and legal wage earning system. We don't. It's very leaky and getting worse every year. Without closing down or penalizing the use of the alternative illegal labor pool, we can simply expect businesses to shift from the legal to the illegal labor. Of course, I would make it very easy to check the legal status of an employee and then simply shut down any employer who failed to check legal status and act accordingly (And I would check and seize businesses that failed to do so)...But that's me. Unfortunately, politicians of both parties benefit from illegal immigration.

The real question for me on these points is whether I *want* my democratic share of power (responsibility) over foreign policy.

If this means giving everyone in the U.S. an equal share of power over our foreign policy then I don't want it. I'm sure we have all seen the tests of basic geography. Significant numbers of US citizens can't find things like the pacific ocean and the U.S. on a map. Yet every single one of them thinks it is their duty to vote. If you are uninformed, it is your duty to either become informed or to not vote. I definitely do not want these people deciding foreign policy and they outnumber the people like me who bother to learn something before voting....

Truthfully, the reason democracy is such a relatively good form of government isn't that it makes good decisions, it's that it keeps large numbers of people relatively comfortable and content, thus providing significant amounts of stability. It has nothing to do with representing the views of the people...

Not to get religious, but even the bible states that God holds the people of a nation responsible for the actions of their nation.

Satan also offered up all the nations of the earth to Jesus. Jesus didn't deny his ability to do so. From this, were I religiously minded, I could conclude that Satan in fact, effectively owns all the nations of the earth.

Some people fail to realize that our 'enemies' don't necessarily hate us as the citizens

A common fallacy is encapsulated in this. For a fanatic, it's not about us at all, it's about them.

The fanatic:
How do I strengthen my commitment and faith to God? Does everyone else believe the same thing? If they don't believe the same thing, how can I force them to be in line with God's wishes?

And for the true fanatic:
Have I tried to kill all the infidels who do not share my exact view of God and the world today?

It is folly to try to reason with someone who as a matter of faith believes it is their duty to kill anyone who does not think the same way they do. The fanatic never asks if what he is doing is really Gods will, if it wasn't, God would have told him. The fanatic never questions, it is impossible to be wrong. God wouldn't let him be wrong, therefore everyone else must be wrong.

Before you can defeat your enemy, you must understand him.

I could go on with the logical extensions of this and what you have to do to eliminate this mentality, but I have probably irriated enough people by now.

Awaiting the flames....

Well you should want it,

I have to disagree here. What does the average citizen know about foreign policy or relations for that matter? Half the U.S population has no clue where Chicago is, let alone Korea. Would I want everyone who has a vote in state and country elections to have a say in such an important theater? May the majority prevail in foreign policy? Would I want every racist, bigot, war monger, tree hugger, peace nick, hill billy, red neck, Democrat, Republican, arm chair quarterback, gang banger, Entertainer, and religious / nonreligious fanatic (Did I leave anyone out?)to have a say on how we handle foreign policy?

I think not.

(Edit: Started post before Purge but due to work reasons had to deviate for a bit.)

Awaiting the flames....

hehe. You may get some but not from me.

Well you should want it, I have to disagree here. What does the average citizen know about foreign policy or relations for that matter?

Sorry guys, I wasn't thinking about the 'masses' of uninformed people who unfortunately do outnumber those of us who wish to keep our minds 'enlightened'. When you put it that way, you are quite correct. I didn't look outside of my perspective on things before posting that comment.

Well you should want it

I should do a lot of things, like stay on the billable clock instead of typing here, eat better, get more exercise, beat my kitties more often, etc.

And, yes, I *should* want my vote to have a nanogram of influence on US foreign policy. But the ignorance problems is real, even for us overeducated types. I doubt I could correctly fill in all the state names on a blank US map any more, much less be certain which tiny Persian Gulf nation is which.

the reason democracy is such a relatively good form of government isn't that it makes good decisions, it's that it keeps large numbers of people relatively comfortable and content

Back at my perfesserin' podium, I have two things to note about this quote: 1) the US is a democratic *republic* (limited gov't) and 2) the material comfort level is from a fairly free continent-wide market.

Democracy and capitalism are not necessarily dependent on each other, no matter how often people say it. A "pure" democracy could vote free markets out of existence at will, and largely authoritarian govt's (e.g. Nazi Germany, modern Singapore) can give lots of liberties to private producers & traders.