Evil Stormbringer Evil Stormbringer

A thought with regards to general computer programming

A thought with regards to general computer programming

So my co-workers and I were discussing all of the inherent problems associated with Beta releases, and technology in general. Most of them remember when I first got this game and the issues that I was having, not to mention issues that others were having, as they saw when I would be on this forum. Now our general debate has to do with programmers claiming that there is no "perfect" program, so to speak. The most common answer given to defend "shoddy" (and I use shoddy loosely, not implying that this game, or any other software is necessarily bad)programs by the programmers is that there is always going to be a glitch, error, or other issue at one point or another, and that no program is flawless.
The heart of the debate is this: Should software companies be allowed to practice business this way? To put out a product and then collect money, only to update or improve later, sometimes at the expense of purchasing an expansion, or purchasing internet access for patches seems like bad business practice according to some in the debate. Others justify this and say pretty much what I stated above, adding that there would be hardly any games out there at all if a company waited until the finished product was perfect, which it never could be.
Someone mentioned that if you bought a lamp and took it home to find that it didn't light, you would return it. If your exchanged lamp does the same thing, repeat said steps to return. Now let's say the salesman told you that the lamp works fine as long as you jiggle it from time to time to keep it lit. Would you still want that lamp? And if you contacted the manufacturer with your complaint and they told you the same thing as the salesman, would you be happy with your purchase? Obviously you would think that the lamp manufacturer had better go back to the drawing board and try again. Other people threw in comments regarding cars, TV's, just about any product that we are used to using. Said companies wouldn't be in business if they supplied "incomplete" products or items that didn't work as advertised, every single time.
I myself don't know my exact position on this one. Some of you in here chastised me so much for assuming that software should work right out of the box that I had re-evaluated my take on it and find that I sit right in the middle on all of this. I mean, on the one hand you should get what you pay for, period. On the other hand, from what I've been told, to make a computer program is difficult work, and there will always be a glitch or bug making it's way into the code. What do any of you think about this?
In some small way I would have to say that if computers and their programs are really that infamous for errors, and that no one can write code without one or two glitches, then maybe the product shouldn't be as mainstream as it is, or at least it should be priced accordingly, experimental. Now please, if you do take the time to respond remember, this is merely a debate, and sadly enough, it is of enough interest to us on this end to come to some sort of conclusion regarding all of this.
edit: The only reason I posted this here was because we are all going through "beta testing" right now and your opinions would be better received than some random thoughts from a ten year old.  
57,856 views 68 replies
Reply #26 Top
Do you write gaming software?

Do you have any idea how a beta for a game works?

I'm guessing no. Like I said, the beta testers for gc2 said it was ready about a month before Stardock released it. Oh look, it had the overheating crash problem.

Because the small group (quite a bit more than 5 or 6 though) hadn't found every bug. Don't try and say "you know software" when you blatantly don't. And if you do, remind me never, ever to buy anything from you.
Reply #27 Top
Gallagher has a point, Marc. It does seem a bit premature to go to public beta. Beta comes when it's time to iron out the complete game. Your statement about this being a release candidate is a little hollow. Release candidate comes after beta testing is complete.

What Stardock _is_ doing is something completely different. They are allowing players to participate in _alpha_ testing and nudge the developers' path in designing the expansion rather than merely testing the expansion. Just check the recent developer journal on the epic generator to see what I mean. But it's not quite alpha either. It's a bit past that and before beta.

Blind loyalty is not loyalty at all. Gallagher, and anybody else, is within their rights to offer criticism of the development process without getting the Department of Homeland Security treatment. I didn't see anything in his post to say he doesn't know about software development. What I did see is a conservative philosophy on the matter.

This thread started with Evil asking everyone why software is the exception to the general consumer expectation for perfection. Gallagher believes that even software has its limits.

I believe that's why people have to pay into the beta. This first phase of testing is why I didn't pay into the beta. Maybe on the third round. Definitely in release.
Reply #28 Top
This thread started with Evil asking everyone why software is the exception to the general consumer expectation for perfection.


Good morning all. Wheeloffire, you are 100% correct. This post was in no way meant to incite, slander, mock, or insinuate anyone, so... my apologies if anyone reads it that way. I really didn't expect this many replies, and especially the one from Brad, which was cool. Those of you that have replied, including gallagher, have done so intelligently and rationally. Again, thank you for that. And just to mention how the workplace "debate" ended yesterday, the devs "won" when Brad chimed in with his laundry list of problems for his two vehicles. That pretty much quieted down the "consumer expectation for perfection" crowd, which was made up mostly of service technicians. Damn grease monkeys...    
Reply #29 Top
Ok, as someone without *any* software experience (aside from playing games for almost 20 years) I´d jump into this thread

I agree with most posters, that there won´t be a "perfect, no error ever" game before the universe dissolves.
What I have noticed however, is that the number of patches required for games to even *run* propperly, has grately risen in numbers in the last couple of years many games needed a patch just to *run* from the get go.

Yes, the software is getting more and more complex with all the new graphics and sound stuff, but still, some games I bought were ridiculous (Nexus anyone?).

Therefore I am a strong proponent of open betas where you get virtually all possible PC-Configuration and all the game situations possible (we players are a rather inventive bunch of people to milk the game mechanics when it comes to strategy games )

After you ironed out the big issues, I don´t have a problem with the occational update that adresses some minor glitches after going gold.



P.S.
I am participating in the VGAP-4 open beta for more than 3 years now. Now *that´s* what I call a beta



Reply #30 Top
Your statement about this being a release candidate is a little hollow. Release candidate comes after beta testing is complete.


How many games wait til they're 95% complete before they go to beta? It's common that they'll be shipped before the final bugs and balance gets ironed it.

What Stardock _is_ doing is something completely different. They are allowing players to participate in _alpha_ testing and nudge the developers' path in designing the expansion rather than merely testing the expansion. Just check the recent developer journal on the epic generator to see what I mean. But it's not quite alpha either. It's a bit past that and before beta.


Private beta? It's not accesable to everyone, it's accesable to those who have paid. In my mind, that would be a private beta, which would be before a public beta.

It has gone past alpha, which was when kyro et al were testing it for the last few weeks. It's not ready for a full public beta, but there isn't one, so I don't see a point.

Blind loyalty is not loyalty at all. Gallagher, and anybody else, is within their rights to offer criticism of the development process without getting the Department of Homeland Security treatment. I didn't see anything in his post to say he doesn't know about software development. What I did see is a conservative philosophy on the matter.


I'm far more used to seeing "OMG THIS HAS BUGS UNNACEPTABLE!", which was what I reacted to. I apologise if that's not what was being said, but he does seem to hold unrealistic expectations. My example was that after fully beta testing gc2 and it being declared practically bug-free, it goes live and suddenly all hell breaks loose. No-one had seen the overheating problem, because the beta was too small, and done on low-end software.

Which is why a dedicated team of five or six people simply wouldn't work. There's too much content, and you'd end up with something fundamentally broken in some way no-one had envisaged.

I believe that's why people have to pay into the beta. This first phase of testing is why I didn't pay into the beta. Maybe on the third round. Definitely in release.


Exactly, it's being kept semi-private. The results are public, but not everyone can access it.

I think that was a lesson from the previous beta builds. So far, the forums haven't erupted into a mass of screaming morons, thankfully. It's been kept relatively calm and useful.
Reply #31 Top
You have to realize that besides the Beta testing, the other and perhaps more important function being provided by this Beta period is that of a marketing study and focus group.

Sure there are bugs being discovered and being corrected, but most of what is being discussed are not bugs but what functionality is desired. You can certainly argue that a dedicated in-house team of Beta testers could perhaps find bugs more efficiently than what's happening now (I’m sure this is happening as well). Certainly, internal qualification is more systematic and organized. But no in-house qualification team that I have ever seen can provide true insight into what the customer really wants.

Stardock has a set of knowledgeable customers willing and able, and in fact, lining up to pay money for the privilege of being part of the Beta. Stardock would be foolish to ignore this resource. No one is forced to play what is known to be buggy pre-release software. I've actually heard more complaint from people that missed being in on the Beta than I have from people whose sensibilities are offended by the fact that software with known bugs is in public beta.

Certainly anyone that disagrees is allowed to voice their opinion, but disagreement doesn’t protect some one from return criticism of their opinions. And to hear Wheel of all people make that suggestion. The one potentially legitimate complaint that anyone opposed to the Beta could have, is that the Beta has essentially usurped these forums to the extent that posts related to regular game play have been obscured. I actually agree with this complaint and wish there was a way of surfing the forums that would filter out Beta related posts for those that aren’t interested.
Reply #32 Top
And to hear Wheel of all people make that suggestion.


why is that surprising? I pound people when they are idiots. I didn't find Gallagher to be worthy of a new one.

You don't need to go very far to find me giving out punishment. Being evil gets more respect. I haven't changed my position there.

The one potentially legitimate complaint that anyone opposed to the Beta could have, is that the Beta has essentially usurped these forums to the extent that posts related to regular game play have been obscured. I actually agree with this complaint and wish there was a way of surfing the forums that would filter out Beta related posts for those that aren’t interested.


Don't mince words. This is the single most annoying effect of the beta. People who are bold enough to participate in the beta are smart enough to go directly to the beta forum. I should have 90+ posts in my Metaverse Scenarios thread but it's been drowned out by the beta reports.

As Marc pointed out, this is restricted beta where the information is publicly accessible. A little too accessible, I think. We still have players until DA is released in February and I am very surprised that Stardock would risk Christmas sales of their excellent Dread Lords game with the DA bug reports and idiotic complaints on the home page.
Reply #33 Top
why is that surprising? I pound people when they are idiots. I didn't find Gallagher to be worthy of a new one.

"A new one". I wonder what that is. No. Don't tell me, I know.

As far as I could tell, I didn't actually drill Gallagher "a new one", I just pointed out that (at the time) he was the one exception to my statement that all the posts in this thread were pretty much supportive of Stardock.

Yes, Wheel, you do pound people when they're idiots. But then, you can also pound them when they are not idiots. In fact, I haven't noticed very many occasions when you weren't pounding someone or other. What I found to be surprising is for Wheel to object to pounding under any circumstances whatsoever.

This is the single most annoying effect of the beta

I agree. But if you felt that way (and I'm not doubting you did), why was I the first to mention it?

As far as I could tell your initial posts were in fact mostly supportive of Stardock. The only thing you did was to defend Gallagher’s right to disagree. Not a thing wrong with that.

Though it would be better if you got to the essence of the issue sooner and expressed your true complaint without having to be prodded.

A little too accessible, I think. We still have players until DA is released in February and I am very surprised that Stardock would risk Christmas sales of their excellent Dread Lords game with the DA bug reports and idiotic complaints on the home page.

This is constructive criticism and I absolutely agree with this. We shouldn't be airing "dirty laundry" on the front page. I wonder if this is something that Kryo could address. Perhaps the Beta posts could be excluded from the recent posts list.
Reply #34 Top
We shouldn't be airing "dirty laundry" on the front page. I wonder if this is something that Kryo could address. Perhaps the Beta posts could be excluded from the recent posts list.


I cannot, unfortunately. AFAIK there's no system in place for doing that sort of thing now, and the web team is still occupied with WinCustomize 2k7.
Reply #35 Top
I agree. But if you felt that way (and I'm not doubting you did), why was I the first to mention it?


November 17, 2006 11:28:06

DA was still being released when I registered the complaint.

"Evil always triumphs over good because good is dumb."--Dark Helmet, Space Balls

Still bothered by short messages requiring your prodding? You won't win there. I don't lecture. I punch, agree, distinguish or move on.

AFAIK there's no system in place for doing that sort of thing now, and the web team is still occupied with WinCustomize 2k7.


It's a SQL statement, kryo. One line. One part of one line. Probably "...WHERE forum <> 'Dark Avatar Bug Reports'..."

Surely, they have a minute for that. Especially if it means not losing sales on Dread Lords.
Reply #36 Top
Evil always triumphs over good because good is dumb."--Dark Helmet, Space Balls


Truly awe inspiring statement.  

You won't win there. I don't lecture. I punch, agree, distinguish or move on.


Now that is the Wheeloffire line of the year right there... Wheel buddy, you slay me.  
Reply #37 Top
Couldn't 5 or 6 full time testers find this stuff pretty fast ? I would think they could find issues faster than can get fixed at this point at least. So why go to beta if internally you find enough problems to keep coding ? (and I don't see hardware problems being an issue for an expansion.)


Gallagher has a point, Marc. It does seem a bit premature to go to public beta. Beta comes when it's time to iron out the complete game. Your statement about this being a release candidate is a little hollow. Release candidate comes after beta testing is complete.


Sorry wheel, you're a smart man but I gotta disagree here. Let's look at this from a marketing perspective. I have a product. The product has been recently developed and still needs extensive testing. I am presented with two choices of groups to test it. The first group will be small, work 8 hours a day for 5 days a week, and I have to pay each of them. Their feedback will be slow because they want to continue getting paid, and their responses will be glowing towards the software developers because they want to continue to keep their job. Then i have a second group, which will be 1000 times bigger than the first, they will do the work for free, and they will give brutally honest feedback that will result in tighter testing and faster fixes.

Which group do you choose?

Reply #38 Top
Then i have a second group, which will be 1000 times bigger than the first, they will do the work for free, and they will give brutally honest feedback that will result in tighter testing and faster fixes.


I myself would choose this group, who wouldn't (plus we actually paid Stardock if you think about it, not a bad thing so whoa there...). I know your question was directed towards Wheel, but I had to respond. I think Wheeloffire's main issue though is how the forum has been overrun by the beta testing crowd and their posts, thus taking away from the actual game with regards to this forum.  Sorry if I stepped on any toes.
Reply #39 Top
This is all in good fun, but it appears you are far better at dishing it out than at taking it. As far as I can tell, I'm agreeing with you.

DA was still being released when I registered the complaint.

Sorry, I guess there's a post of yours that I missed. I suppose I should clear out my calendar and religiously search the forums for your pearls of wisdom.

"Evil always triumphs over good because good is dumb."--Dark Helmet, Space Balls

I did thoroughly enjoy Space Balls, but patterning your life after a Rick Moranis line in a Mel Brooks movie is truly amusing. Isn't there something from Honey, I Shrunk the Kids that might be perhaps a little more awe inspiring.

I don't lecture. I punch, agree, distinguish or move on.

This is correct. You punch, agree, distinguish or move on. It's just that you often don't make your point.

It's a SQL statement, kryo. One line. One part of one line. Probably "...WHERE forum <> 'Dark Avatar Bug Reports'..."

Surely, they have a minute for that. Especially if it means not losing sales on Dread Lords.

Insulting Kryo is about the least productive thing that you could do.
Reply #40 Top
Thank you, Evil.

Nova, that was out of context even by my most evil standards. What I meant in saying that Gallagher has a point is in regards to it going to beta early. I'm definitely not in favor of "professional beta testing" for a game. He has a different take on how software should be developed. He was attacked for it. His position works well in just about every other category. It doesn't work in games.

Giving Gallagher a break does not equate to agreeing with him.

Next time you try an out-of-context stunt, I'm going to string together every post you've made here to show you're a handmaiden for the Gay Mafia.
Reply #41 Top
It's a SQL statement, kryo. One line. One part of one line. Probably "...WHERE forum <> 'Dark Avatar Bug Reports'..."


It's not nearly that simple, especially when there's a shared codebase between all the forums... kludges like that are nobody's friend, and are a nightmare for maintainability.

Even if there was such a feature already, using it in a case like this would not be a question for me; that would be something for Brad to decide.

By the way, insulting my intelligence isn't going to help you any--I'm a web developer too (though not for SD) so I know how simple kludges can look *when you first implement them*... they rarely stay that way for long.
Reply #42 Top
On a single site, that's not really a kludge. Putting every site on the same database... that's kind of crazy for something as big as TGN.

I hope the crazy DA subject lines settle down.
Reply #43 Top
that's kind of crazy for something as big as TGN.


And Joeuser, stardock.com, poweruser.tv, etc etc. Hence the problem, really.
Reply #44 Top
Sorry wheel, you're a smart man but I gotta disagree here. Let's look at this from a marketing perspective. I have a product. The product has been recently developed and still needs extensive testing. I am presented with two choices of groups to test it. The first group will be small, work 8 hours a day for 5 days a week, and I have to pay each of them. Their feedback will be slow because they want to continue getting paid, and their responses will be glowing towards the software developers because they want to continue to keep their job. Then i have a second group, which will be 1000 times bigger than the first, they will do the work for free, and they will give brutally honest feedback that will result in tighter testing and faster


Bingo! Stardock is being a shining example of capitalism at it's best. The customers are actually creating the product they will buy! I need to see if I can do this at work...
Reply #45 Top
capitalism at it's best.


I don't know if I would use "capitalism" and "best" in relation to each other... unless we were doing so to describe how best to ruin humanity through greed...  but I digress...  
Reply #46 Top
I agree that Stardock is a good capitalist company. Real capitalism where transactions are fair and all parties benefit. Not fascism/corporatism practiced by the likes of Electronic Arts and Microsoft.

This ties in with the original post. The deal here is that a customer pays money with the belief that the product will be made as perfectly functional as possible. I don't a fair deal with most other game companies so they don't get my money. When transactions aren't fair, capitalism does not exist.
Reply #47 Top
Next time you try an out-of-context stunt, I'm going to string together every post you've made here to show you're a handmaiden for the Gay Mafia.


HAHAHAHAHAHA

Wheel, if you seriously can, and have the time to do that, please do. It would make my day.

And, I apologize if I took your point out of context. I wasn't attacking you or trying to make you look ignorant etc... there have been plenty that have tried and failed .

And quick Q cuz I didn't grab a beta... is that a standalone purchase? Or will you receive something besides the beta when the game comes out?

If it is a standalone purchase then I might have climbed a tree and started slinging monkey feces too, but I guess that depends on a lot of things. (this comment is not directed at anyone in particular)

Oh, and the reason you had to pay for the beta is most likely to support costs of distribution and such. I really doubt they flipped a beta for a profit... but if they did *thumbs up StarDock*
Reply #48 Top
You have no idea how badly I want to do this.



Change gender?

Reply #49 Top

And quick Q cuz I didn't grab a beta... is that a standalone purchase? Or will you receive something besides the beta when the game comes out?


When you pre-order, you get the beta and the right to provide your opinion and report bugs during development. I am in the middle of a gigantic Metaverse game so I decided against getting the early beta. The beta is not a finished product (hence, beta) so keep that in mind.

Paying for the beta is about guaranteeing a pool of dedicated testers. The general public is a poor testbed. The paid beta pool will, theoretically, report bugs in a manner that is useful and constructive for the development team.

I personally do not have the time. There's paying for software that might have bugs (the subject of this thread) and paying for software that definitely has bugs until the retail launch (beta.) Maybe I'll pay after I finish this game. I'll definitely buy the retail version.

Glad you don't get wrapped up in the punishment I dole out to random people here. I thought the Gay Mafia comment was absurd enough that you didn't need smiley faces to know I'm kidding. In the gifting thread, I appreciate you calling out the pompous eurotrash. I declined to make him miserable because I think kryo is serious about locking all political threads outside of Off Topic.
Reply #50 Top
Change gender?


Stop asking that. No, create evil mutants.

I'm going to write about you all in my livejournal, then write a song about the sadness of the whole situation pouring out in a wave of emotion from my wrists.

I mean it. My haircut is dark, I understand linkin park, and I'm original.