So what do you say to Joe Schmoe who bought the game at a store, never goes online, and wonders what is wrong with his game not running?

Nothing, how do you except us to be able to speak to him if he doesn't have internet?

Nothing, how do you except us to be able to speak to him if he doesn't have internet?

Which was the gist of my post! Those without internet access are at a disadvantage. My post is aimed at the devs and what they could (or should)do to accomodate said people. I know it's so hard for some of you to accept that not everyone is online. I wouldn't be if it wasn't for a work connection. And no, my work computer has no burning capabilities, it's for work! Why must everyone get defensive (as well as offensive)when I ask this of the devs? It is not a personal attack, nor do I really care, as I will play the game in whatever capacity I have to play it. I just don't agree with a certain demographic getting the proverbial shaft with regards to this issue. I love sarcasm just as much as the next guy, I don't appreciate having my opinion called stupid when it is MY OPINION. That is why we can converse with eachother, that's why we are all different! I respect your opinion, so why trash mine? I do everything I can with regards to updating and patching, and it's monotonous. Can't I say that here? Isn't that why I am here? To question the devs as well as you guys, on issues with the game. You people have taught me to have some manners in here, yet you extend none yourselves (not all of you of course, so don't assume). Was my opinion that "stupid"? There are people who play computer games without the aid of internet access, wow, go figure. I didn't stumble across this game online, I found it at an EB retail outlet. If I hadn't looked, I would have never known. I liked what I saw and I bought it. Think of those people who are like me with regards to purchasing games. There are alot of us out there and we shouldn't be overlooked by the devs, either at Stardock or anywhere else for that matter. So to clarify, I love updates and additions, I hate bugs and the bugs that arise from "fixes". My internet access is limited and I am a huge fan. So how about catering a little towards those like me? Is that too much to ask?

So how about catering a little towards those like me? Is that too much to ask?

I'm still not seeing how Stardock could "cater to" you other than by not offering regular patches and updates. Please confirm or correct my assumption that you believe a game should be bug-free (or very close) when it first ships.

For what it's worth, I fully agree with your general objection to the software industry's assumption that everyone spends as much as they can on their PC world. I've been half-flamed elsewhere b/c I'm very conservative about hardware investments (too cheap to have a hot video card, basically).

Oh, and thanks Mumblefratz, I think, lol. Never had it put that way before though. I think people are missing the point of the post, or maybe I am not wording it right, we'll see.

I understand some of your frustration. It does seem like a short time from v1.3 to v1.4, but I personally would much rather have things fixed too soon than too late. It's a little annoying to know you're going to have to adjust to some more changes when you haven't even fully adjusted to those in v1.3 yet. I guess if you want the coming changes (which I do) then you're more tolerant than if you don't care so much about them.

As far as bug fixes, if the functionality were static then you'd be correct in assuming there would be a limited set of them, they'd get fixed and that would be the end of it. But if the game were static, people would be bored with it within six months.

I appreciate that Stardock continually modifies and improves the game based on user feedback. I don't necessarily agree with all the changes they make, but overall I think the game get's continually better. The downside to this is the inevitable fact that the introduction of new functionality introduces new bugs or even re-introduces some old bugs that had previously been fixed. I look at this as having to take the bad with the good.

Perhaps the biggest part of your complaint is internet access. Up until last year the only thing I could get was dial-up. If that was still the case I might be complaining as loudly as you. Thankfully, my phone company started providing DSL to my area and I have no real bandwidth issue. But you do need to realize that most people don't have this issue and can't really sympathize with you on this. That may be short sighted on their part but it's just the way it is.

Evil Stormbringer, Originally, we were going to make it so that Dark Avatar was an update to GC2, and 1.3 was going to be the last patch to GC2 because we wouldn't have been able to make any further updates. However, in response to the feedback from the community, we are now making it so that you will still be able to play GC2 minus Dark Avatar even after you install it and buy it. This means that we will be able to update both GC2 and Dark Avatar independantly. Mind you, it's a little more work for us than if we were just updating Dark Avatar, but this way we have the option to release more updates for GC2. So, go get yourself a caffeinated beverage (because frankly, it sounds like you need one) and think about what you just said. More free updates from Stardock? I think that calls for a "yay!" (w00t is so overused)

Thanks Cari.....I don't like this thread looks at floor ashamed.

It's one thing to say, "I'm upset because I don't have regular internet and can't enjoy the game to its full potential." That's fine. Say it and be done. Or you might be saying "I wish the game didn't have so many bugs." that's fine, too. Say it and be done.

But I honestly can't figure out what your point is. Saying that Stardock is "discriminating" against people without internet is like (by parity of reasoning) saying that Stardock discriminates against Eskimos because they haven't made a version that can be played with snow and seal blubber. What would you have them do?

This is one of those times, Evil Stormbringer, when it may be more valiant to just let the faulty argument die than to keep trying to defend an untenable position.

My internet access is limited and I am a huge fan. So how about catering a little towards those like me? Is that too much to ask?

I'd be happy to burn a cd for you and mail it to you. If there are a whole bunch of folks in this situation, I certainly couldn't handle that. Perhaps Stardock could offer to provide cd's for folks in this situation. These are free updates so I'm sure there would be some nominal charge for shipping and handling, but would that work for you?

I think the community wrath was stirred up over the wording.

Free updates isn't the issue, it's the disadvantage it gives to those who have no internet access. You miss the point, I think. What good do the updates do to those who don't have access?

This is like saying "Online forums are discriminating against me because I don't have internet access and therefore cannot post." Or "The Government is discriminating against me because I don't have a car and therefore cannot drive on the roads like others do."

Updates are best handled via internet download. Snail-mailing an update disc to everyone who purchased the game is simply not a valid option for any company. It's too costly and difficult to manage. While it is true not everyone has internet access, the majority of PC gamers do. Stardock is not discriminating against people who don't have internet access; it is the responsibility of those who want the free update to find a means to get it.

Anyway, someone who does not have internet access is not aware that updates are available.

But, in any case, the game is certainly playable in its current state.

As far as bugs... well, it's not a perfect world. I can't imagine any respectible developer who would say "Hey, it's bug-fest in there but let's ship it anyway. I want to move on to the next project." Typically, the Powers That Be (project leads and publishers) must pry the game from the hands of the development team, or it will never be released; there's always one more feature they'd like to add or a bit more testing to be done.

Stardock is taking pains to ensure that we don't lose Dread Lords when we update to Dark Avatar. Certainly this is something good?

Free updates isn't the issue, it's the disadvantage it gives to those who have no internet access. You miss the point, I think. What good do the updates do to those who don't have access?

Evil Stormbringer, the updates will still be included in Dark Avatar. People can wait until Dark Avatar if they need to.  How is it unfair to provide updates for people who have no troubles getting them?

 

Please confirm or correct my assumption that you believe a game should be bug-free (or very close) when it first ships.

I do NOT believe that a game is provided bug free. Do I think they should be, well, yes if it was a perfect world but it isn't and I know this. I said I think they SHOULD, so be clear that there is a difference. I know this cannot happen by today's standards and I accept that. So please, don't think I am an idiot who thinks that a game is going to be bug free. I hope that answers you as far as what my opinion is with regards to bugs. Don't assume, ever. And yes Mumblefratz, your last paragraph is my issue completely. I don't want sympathy. I am trying to let the devs know that there is another market out there for their product that they may or may not be thinking of when going about all of this. If only other people responded the way you do... but alas, they do not. So sorry everybody if my opinion offended you or if you mistook the post. Stardock seems to try and help it's customer base as much as possible, so I figured they should know that they are overlooking certain demographics. If they aren't, then why not address some of those issues?

Wow, that didn't take long. Wasn't all of this stuff supposed to be fixed with the release of the expansion? I'm really starting to get annoyed at these updates, at least as far as their frequency is concerned. Don't get me wrong, any improvements are always welcomed by me but another patch? Like I said, I know nothing about this patch and was led to believe the expansion would take care of all of this. Is this so or are there going to be infinite patches/updates/and bug fixes? Am I really the only one in here that is getting sick of this?

I am trying to let the devs know that there is another market out there for their product that they may or may not be thinking of when going about all of this. If only other people responded the way you do... but alas, they do not. So sorry everybody if my opinion offended you or if you mistook the post. Stardock seems to try and help it's customer base as much as possible, so I figured they should know that they are overlooking certain demographics. If they aren't, then why not address some of those issues?

Notice the vast difference between the the tone and content of the first post and the last post. You most definitely were NOT trying to help the devs, you were complaining about the frequency of patches. No one is offended by your opinion, they are offended by the lack of logic with which you tried to defend your position.

You can rest assured that the devs are completely aware of the situation you bring up, it's just not in their financial interests (or the interests of the majority of their customers) to go to great lengths to accomodate a vanishingly small part of that customer base. It's simple cost-benefit analysis.

I believe a "yay!" was called for?

"yay!"

Notice the vast difference between the the tone and content of the first post and the last post.

Yes, and the difference is there for a reason, diplomacy. My original paragraph that you quote is my true anger at the constant "updates". Updates for content is great, and I love it. Updates for bugs are okay, and I endure them because I need to. Correct me if I am wrong but not every "update" was to add content only. My anger arises from the bug fix/update that makes a new bug, that then needs addressed.
My second paragraph that you quote is in response to a hostile environment, of a sort. If I continued down my verbal path, we would have all gotten inflamed. So I shifted the "tone" of what all of this boils down to for me. The bottom line, there is no "help" that I can give to the devs. I was voicing my op and would like to eventually see a way implemented where everyone benefits. If it can't be fixed, so be it. If it can't because of "financial interests" as you put it, then that is a shame. As I stated somewhere else, it sometimes takes money to make money... too bad it's just always all about the money!
And yes, I will let this one die a less than valiant death  

More free updates from Stardock? I think that calls for a "yay!" (w00t is so overused)

Yay!

Aww, it's a pretty valiant death.

Now that I think about it, maybe a few of us *were* offended by your opinion. From a programmer's perspective, I can tell you that at least 90% of the time bugs are the result of mounting complexity, not ineptitude. Hell, even NASA has a hard time taming complexity. I (and maybe some other folks here) took your original post to say that you thought the devs are lazy or incompetent, and I think a lot of us were eager to disabuse you of that notion.

It's definitely cool that some folks are willing to burn you a copy of the patches. I would say that is the best solution to the problem you're having, as it leaves the developers free to continually improve the game.

Is it too late now for a "Yay!"?

I was voicing my op and would like to eventually see a way implemented where everyone benefits.

You have got a strange way of showing it. Your only suggestion so far is to make it so that none benefits.

Updates for content is great, and I love it. Updates for bugs are okay, and I endure them because I need to. Correct me if I am wrong but not every "update" was to add content only. My anger arises from the bug fix/update that makes a new bug, that then needs addressed.

Well, I'm sorry but you can't have both. New content means new bugs.

Let me amend my last...

Causes of software bugs:

Complexity of the project: 55%
Management: 25%
Wife/GF/SO/pets/kids: 10%
Residual effects of
drug "experimentation": 5%
Cosmic rays: 3%
Ineptitude: 2%

And yes, I will let this one die a less than valiant death

I was serious about burning a cd and mailing it to you. It's really no big deal for one person. Click on my name and send me an email with your mailing address and I'd be happy to send it to you when it comes out.

Is it too late now for a "Yay!"?

YAY!!!  
I was serious about burning a cd and mailing it to you. It's really no big deal for one person. Click on my name and send me an email with your mailing address and I'd be happy to send it to you when it comes out
And I thank you Mumblefratz. If I go that route I will let you know and your gesture is noted and greatly appreciated. MUMBLEFRATZ FOR PRESIDENT  

E.S. looks like even more of an idiot after his attempts at explanation than he did with the original reply. Is it even worth it for me to slap him down?

And his one defender didn't come off too well either.

You know, gloating when you win makes you look worse than the people you're attacking. Don't do it.

Is it even worth it for me to slap him down?

Of course not. This sort of stuff is worse than worthless for most of us, even if we were wrangling with Evil S.

E.S. looks like even more of an idiot after his attempts at explanation than he did with the original reply. Is it even worth it for me to slap him down?

Do you truly wish for the smackdown to be put upon you Jasamcarl? Then you want to insult someone else who had nothing to do with what I posted? I thought CariElf told you that people under thirteen aren't allowed in here. Now go back to eating your crayons and maybe, just maybe, if you don't piss yourself during naptime the teacher will let you play on the see saw.
I like how people are so open to debate in here, and the responses, oh the responses. Sometimes it amazes me that some of you(and you know who you are) can even turn on your computer let alone perform keystrokes. But go ahead and keep on bashing away brother.....
Oh, and where would you say I come off like a bigger idiot in my explanation. Debate and devils advocate were always my forte... so maybe if I contradict myself, and allow myself to be open to other opinions, I might see something from someone else's point and maybe even learn something. Seems like you need to do the same.

If you can't burn a disc, just go buy a USB flash drive. You can get a 256MB stick for less than $15 anymore, and smaller ones even cheaper (most likely less than shipping a CD). The patches are small enough to fit on a 64 or even 32 if you can find one (heck, some places give 32's away FREE for promotions nowadays).