So...to summarize the thread, energy travels in waves and still no sound in space. Great.

I would not say that there is no sound in space.
Above we talked about Electromagnetic Radiation as quoted from my earlier post below......

Radio waves, Microwaves, infrared rays, visible light, ultraviolet rays, x-rays and gamma rays make up electromagnetic radiation. In this case, propagation is possible without a medium, through vacuum.

That brings me to the Electromagnetic Spectrum. The spectrum of an object is the range of electromagnetic radiation that it reflects or emits. The Electromagnetic Spectrum extends from just below the frequencies used for modern radio ( long-wavelength ) to gamma radiation ( short-wavelength ), covering thousands of Miles down to a fraction of an atom.

Now Frequency is a measurement. Basically the number of times a repeated event occurs over time. It can also be defined as the rate of change of phase in a Sinusoidal Wave.

A baby can hear tones up to 20,000 Hz, but these frequencies become harder to hear as we get older. An Orchestra tunes its instruments to the standard pitch of A just above middle C. Broken down it is about 440 cycles per second... or 440 Hz.

SETI ( Search for Extra-Terrestrial Intelligence ) uses Radio telescopes to search the Electromagnetic Spectrum for frequencies Aliens might be using.

So I guess to summarize, Energy travels in waves, Sound travels in Frequencies, and Frequencies travel in Electromagnetic Radiation. Which ER travels in a vacuum.

Does that mean there is sound in space?

You are right when you say that electrons replace each other as they travel under a DC current, but an AC current does not force the electrons to travel as waves. The electrons just change their dirrection of movement every time the current changes sign. The electrons do however, travel in waves as they move through the empty space between each atom in the circuitry.

AC current forces the electron to constantly change it's direction. Because of some odd occurence, the electron will actually move along a wave-like pattern(no, I am not confusing this with voltage waveform), some speculate the electron it doesn't want to travel the same path it did before because it did something to it, some say it is because of wave interference with the other electrons, as some electrons do have a total movement. I don't know why it does it, but in AC current, without any interference(atoms etc), a single electron will not move along the same line repeatedly.

So I guess to summarize, Energy travels in waves, Sound travels in Frequencies, and Frequencies travel in Electromagnetic Radiation. Which ER travels in a vacuum. Does that mean there is sound in space?

Dude, you're way off course. Nothing travels in frequencies, the frequency is just a measurement of the amount of whole waves that pass through a point in a unit of time. Sound travels in waves, and the waves have a frequency. Frequencies don't travel.

so how does this have to do with anything? I dunno you people posted some crap and I keep getting side tracked Darn ADD maybe I made sense?

Don't worry, you made sense. And AFAIK, the sonic and laser gadgets are there for field testing. So far I didn't get my hands on any evaluations, so whatever information you have please post it.

AC current forces the electron to constantly change it's direction. Because of some odd occurence, the electron will actually move along a wave-like pattern(no, I am not confusing this with voltage waveform), some speculate the electron it doesn't want to travel the same path it did before because it did something to it, some say it is because of wave interference with the other electrons, as some electrons do have a total movement. I don't know why it does it, but in AC current, without any interference(atoms etc), a single electron will not move along the same line repeatedly.

I completely agree with that. I was just trying to say that electrons travel in waves all the time not just under an AC current.

Does that mean there is sound in space?

Not by your reasoning, but aparently there is sound in space.

Sound can travel through space, because space is not the total vacuum it's often made out to be. Atoms of gas give the universe a ubiquitous atmosphere of sorts, albeit a very thin one. Sound, unlike light, travels by compressing a medium. On Earth, the atmosphere works well as a sound-carrying medium, as does water. The planet itself is very adept at transmitting an earthquake's seismic waves, a form of sound. Space, though not as efficient, can also serve as a medium. If a brave and clever astronaut could safely remove her helmet and shout into the cosmos, her voice would carry. "We wouldn't be able to hear the sound because our ears aren't sensitive enough," explains Lynn Carter, a graduate student in astronomy at Cornell University. Not enough atoms -- if any -- would strike our eardrums. "Maybe if we had an amazingly large and sensitive microphone we could detect these sounds, but to our human ear it would be silent."

Link to source.
WWW Link

So...to summarize the thread, energy travels in waves and still no sound in space. Great.

Hey now, I'm the one who was saying energy travels in waves! LOL. Seriously though, I forget who replied that we are missing my point. If someone swings a hammer and hits you in the head, the result is the sound, or thud. People only see (or hear) the resultant sound, completely missing that it was the swinging hammer that produced the ENERGY necessary to make sound. Sound is energy! It's just not neatly packaged for some of us to get our brainpans around! Oh, and great discussion btw!

... yes, we get it.... moron ...

I like that quote from the space.com site. It's exactly what I was trying to say.

I don't think I ever argued that sound was or was not produced by energy. It's just a matter of actually supplying the right /KIND/ of energy. There's a wide variety of energy types in the universe. The kind needed for sound, however, doesn't occur often in the vast (near-)void of space.

moron? ouch  

The kind needed for sound, however, doesn't occur often in the vast (near-)void of space.

Actually it happens all the time. Sound is created when molecules vibrate. Those vibrations cause presure waves through a medium. Our medium now just happens to be the smattering of molecules occupying space. The sun is a quivering mass mass of hot plasma asteroids collide with each other and planets, Shoemaker-Levey 9 anyone,and even black holes make sound aparently. If you look at the bottom of the Space.com link it give a link to a story about a black hole giving off a nice b flat. All you need for sound is physically interacting bodies. Just in space to hear it you would need as they said an enormouns microphone, as well as a very sensitive one.

As for the topic at hand I agree with the tactic of forming some sort of particle link between the 'sonic cannon' and the opposing ship. How feasable and effective that would be compared to just blasting away with lasers I wouldn't really know. I would doubt it for space combat though. Rather it would probably be much more effective as an invasion tactic. When you are bieng bombarded with high intensity sound waves I would expect the oposing soldiers to lose alot of combat effectiveness. Also it wouldn't have a big effect on planetary improvements. It would be expensive though, as you would need to set up alot of big high intensity sound generators around the planet.

It wouldn't be a sound wave cannon, or a sound producing weapon. It would be a laser. What is sound? An audible vibration. You can't have an audible vibration in space because the frequencies within the audible portion of the vibrational spectrum do not resonate with molecules in space. When you talk about sound waves, laser beams, microwaves, you are really talking about varying frequencies and wavelengths of a single universal spectrum. You're talking about a reaction, however. The vibration of molecules is a reaction to a wave coming into contact with them. If the wave resonates at the same frequency, the molecules will vibrate and resonate. Heat, light, or sound, or whatever is generated depending on frequency. Hearing and seeing are the same but different, like tasting and smelling. It's all one spectrum.

So, what would cause a sound wave to stop itself from perpetuating in the vacuum of space? Nothing, unless something was in the way. Now, if a starship, let's say, a titanium hull were there you would want a sound vibration that resonates with titanium, but if you do that it would no longer be sound! Do you understand now? Everything is made of the same stuff. Your monitor and your hand are both made of waveforms. It is the act of observing that collapses that wave function and thus you have what appear to be particles. Silly humans. You always talk about one thing and think you're talking about different things.

It's like people saying theory of big bang and theory of God are different. Both say everything comes from one singularity. Big bang people might say oh it's different because there is no personality in the singularity. But if that is so, how come you have personality? Then God people might say oh I have this book that tells me everything I need to know. Ok have fun with that.

Point is Galactic Civilizations and the music that plays when you start the game is supposed to get you thinking galactically. Are you thinking galactically? Do you know what that means? Why don't I say universally? Is it because of the game, or is it because of some specific difference between the terms universal and galactic? Galacto means milk and that's where you get this word galaxy from. Not because it looks milky, but because milk and the galaxy mean the same thing. Milk is everything in one. All potential nutrients necessary for life are there. It's like the stem cells of nutrients. Your body will make whatever it needs from milk. Now are you thinking Galactically?

I think you need to take a long moment to listen to the music when you load up the game and just try to visualize yourself in 2225, the illusion of your supremacy long shattered, and only the hope of tomorrow to drive you forward. Think Galactically. Look up at the stars, and try to imagine yourself falling into them. It's scary. Try it.

It wouldn't be a sound wave cannon, or a sound producing weapon. It would be a laser.

Why would you use a laser as a sonic weapon? Sonic weapons deal with sound. Lasers just produce light of a uniform frequency in a single dirrection, not sound.

What is sound? An audible vibration.

Close but not exactly. Sound is a compression wave through a medium caused by the vibrations you mentioned. Think of it like this. I tap a tuning fork on a table. The prong of the tuning fork i tapped begins to vibrate left and right. As it moves pack and forth it bumps the air milecules around it. When it moves in one dirrection it bumps into the air compressing it. When it moves in the other dirrection the air where it left then becomes less dence. This series of high and low pressure areas in the air is what a sound wave is. The molecules bump into each other and perpetuate the wave across a distance until they lose to much energy from bumping into each other leading the breakdown of the wave.

When you talk about sound waves, laser beams, microwaves, you are really talking about varying frequencies and wavelengths of a single universal spectrum.

No. sound waves have noting to do with microwaves and such. Light, microwaves, x-rays, ect. are all part of the electromagnet spectrum. Sound is not. Like i said before sound is a presure wave through a medium.

The vibration of molecules is a reaction to a wave coming into contact with them. If the wave resonates at the same frequency, the molecules will vibrate and resonate. Heat, light, or sound, or whatever is generated depending on frequency.

Once again almos. An object will only resonate at a particular sound frequency called the resonance frequency. That frequency depends largely the shape and composition of the object. A resonating object will certainly not give off heat or light. It will however vibrate at the same rate as the resonance frequency.

Hearing and seeing are the same but different, like tasting and smelling. It's all one spectrum.

Tasting and smelling are comparable only because they deal with the detection of molecules. Hearing and seeing are not however the same in any way. Seeing is the dectection of light, while hearing is the detection of sound. As I have explained before, light and sound are not the same.

So, what would cause a sound wave to stop itself from perpetuating in the vacuum of space? Nothing, unless something was in the way. Now, if a starship, let's say, a titanium hull were there you would want a sound vibration that resonates with titanium, but if you do that it would no longer be sound!

Actually it would still be sound. What would be there to not make it sound. You would however have a vibrating peice of titanium plating. Make the sound strong enough and it may just bust off.

Do you understand now? Everything is made of the same stuff. Your monitor and your hand are both made of waveforms. It is the act of observing that collapses that wave function and thus you have what appear to be particles.

Once again you are almost correct in what you are saying. Those waveforms you speak of are waveforms representing the the probability of where a piece of matter is, not what it is. The act of observing does however force the waveform to collapse, but this causes to matter to be roundabout where you observed it to be. Heisenburg's uncertanty principle is still in effect here so you can't know exactly where it is without changing it's speed. Now though you're getting into quantum mechanics. An extremely interesting topic but not quite relavent to the discusion at hand.

I think you need to take a long moment to listen to the music when you load up the game and just try to visualize yourself in 2225, the illusion of your supremacy long shattered, and only the hope of tomorrow to drive you forward. Think Galactically. Look up at the stars, and try to imagine yourself falling into them. It's scary. Try it.

I have, and it is. What's even scarier is trying to do the same thing only with the way Earth is today.

So I guess to summarize, Energy travels in waves, Sound travels in Frequencies, and Frequencies travel in Electromagnetic Radiation. Which ER travels in a vacuum.

Dude, you're way off course. Nothing travels in frequencies, the frequency is just a measurement

You are correct sir. It was early and I was trying to make the reading more enjoyable. I failed miserably by the way.
Sound has a frequency, it does not travel within. The statements I made above my stupid statement clarified that.

sound waves have noting to do with microwaves and such. Light, microwaves, x-rays, ect. are all part of the electromagnet spectrum. Sound is not. Like i said before sound is a presure wave through a medium.

A wave is a disturbance that propagates through space or space-time, often transferring energy. While a mechanical wave exists in a medium (which on deformation is capable of producing elastic restoring forces), waves of electromagnetic radiation (and probably gravitational radiation) can travel through vacuum, that is, without a medium. Waves travel and transfer energy from one point to another, with little or no permanent displacement of the particles of the medium (there is little or no associated mass transport); instead there are oscillations around fixed positions.

What is Electromagnetic Radiation?

Radio waves, Microwaves, infrared rays, visible light, ultraviolet rays, x-rays and gamma rays make up electromagnetic radiation. In this case, propagation is possible without a medium, through vacuum.

How is it measured?

Electromagnetic Spectrum. The spectrum of an object is the range of electromagnetic radiation that it reflects or emits. The Electromagnetic Spectrum extends from just below the frequencies used for modern radio ( long-wavelength ) to gamma radiation ( short-wavelength ), covering thousands of Miles down to a fraction of an atom.

Since Sound is measured frequencies......

No. sound waves have noting to do with microwaves and such. Light, microwaves, x-rays, ect. are all part of the electromagnet spectrum. Sound is not. Like i said before sound is a presure wave through a medium.

Could you explain this a little further? I may be wrong on this point, but everything I have learned on the subject suggests otherwise. I do agree that sound is a pressure wave through a medium, and I also agree that space is also a medium to an extent. However, to say it has nothing to do with radio waves and such, since they are measured by frequencies, just as sound, I am not unerstanding. Do you see why I am debating this point?

Now though you're getting into quantum mechanics. An extremely interesting topic but not quite relavent to the discusion at hand.

I would also like to know your opinion on Quantum Noise. Which it could be very relevant.
I love learning and this is very captivating to me, thank you all for the great conversation!

Back to the main subject at hand with the "Sonic Weapons". If it is possible to generate enough power to create Mini black holes, why would it be that much more difficult to create a weapon that would use a type of Seismic shockwave to rip a ship apart?

I think some of you guys should get an honorary PhD or something! Great discussion. I think I've learned more from this thread than in all four years of high school science.

If it is possible to generate enough power to create Mini black holes, why would it be that much more difficult to create a weapon that would use a type of Seismic shockwave to rip a ship apart?

It's not so much a question of enough power as enough mass to transmit a shockwave. Ships would need to be surrounded by sufficiently dense mass to transmit the motion.

Sound and and other shockwaves that propagate through matter just don't make effective weapons in space. By definition the concept just doesn't work. You have to find some other way to transmit energy other than mass.

Could you explain this a little further? I may be wrong on this point, but everything I have learned on the subject suggests otherwise. I do agree that sound is a pressure wave through a medium, and I also agree that space is also a medium to an extent. However, to say it has nothing to do with radio waves and such, since they are measured by frequencies, just as sound, I am not unerstanding. Do you see why I am debating this point?

I can see why you are confused, and I'd be happy to try and explain it a little better. I was just a little too ambitious when saying that they have absolutelynothing to do with each other. You are absolutely right what you say that they are both measured in terms of frequency and wavelength.

The real difference between them is their composition. Light, microwaves, ect. are members of the electromagnetic spectrum as you have stated. That means that they are made of photons. Photons are near massless particle/waves that travel at the speed of light, about 299,792,458 m/s (meters per second) in a vacuum. By changing the frequency and the wavelength of these photons you can obtain the different members of the electromagnetic spectrum. These waves can also without a medium.

Sound on the other hand is not it't own particle but, as I said before, a pressure wave through a medium. Through air the speed of sound is roughly 340.29 m/s. In denser materials, like rock or metal sound will travel much faster. By changing the frequency and the wave length of a sound wave you get nothing more than a different sound wave. Change it too much and it it will leave your range of hearing. This however does not make it anything another than sound. Another major difference is that sound waves absolutely cannot exist without a medium to pass through.

I hope this helps dispell your confusion. EM radiation and sound are similar yes, but it is wrong to say that they are the same thing.

and probably gravitational radiation) can travel through vacuum, that is, without a medium.

You are right that it can travel through a vacuum. If not how could it hold the moon in place with there bieng so few particles in space? Gravity is the only thing however, as far as anybody knows, travels in a pure wave. There has never been a particle found that can be associated with gravity, though they really have tried. Gravity according to the leading theory is explained as a dip in space-time, caused by a large mass. The bigger the mass the bigger the dip. Think of a large sheet of saran wrap streached tightly across an open space. If you poke the saran wrap too hard you'll put a dip in it. Roll something across the sheet towards the dip and it will swirve around it or fall in. This is a simplistic view of how gravity works, but I think it is an accurate depiction.

I would also like to know your opinion on Quantum Noise. Which it could be very relevant

As far as I know quantum noise refers to unwanted votage in electrical systems caused by the movement of charges, and by inconsistencies in the manufacturing process. If you are refering to what would be sound waves as the quantum level I wouldn't really see the point. Particles at the quantum level either hardly react with anything ever, or exist at conditions that take an immense particle collider to create, making it terribly expensive and difficult to make them into a sound weapon.

Back to the main subject at hand with the "Sonic Weapons". If it is possible to generate enough power to create Mini black holes, why would it be that much more difficult to create a weapon that would use a type of Seismic shockwave to rip a ship apart?

Exactly, why not? Though I have to say I am happy with the current weapon system and realize that it would take an immense ammount of coding to account for a new weapon type. I still think though that the most practical application would be as an invasion tactic.

I love learning and this is very captivating to me, thank you all for the great conversation!

Glad I could help. I myself love a good scientific conversation from time to time. I knew all this useless knowledge I picked up would come in handy some day. Now all I have to do is find a use for those hundred decimal places of Pi...

t's not so much a question of enough power as enough mass to transmit a shockwave. Ships would need to be surrounded by sufficiently dense mass to transmit the motion. Sound and and other shockwaves that propagate through matter just don't make effective weapons in space. By definition the concept just doesn't work. You have to find some other way to transmit energy other than mass.

Point taken. Though I admit it is impractical, for the purpose, it still is possible considering the advanced tech in the game.

Whoa I understand now. Your a pretty smart fellow. You cleared that up perfectly for me. Thank you again. I understood to an extent before, but some things I had learned clouded my vision on the subject.

The bottom line I think, about sound traveling in space, is that it can. I think what really got this thread off and running was one of my statements and some of the responses I got.

Energy in general travels in Waves.

Space, can be a medium for sound, not audible within our range of hearing, but can travel none the less.

Now with the Sonic Weapons we are talking about. Using a beam of particles, hyper accelerated ( I guess Harmonics )so that densely packed particles are moving rapidly within the stream, coming into contact with a mass (Ship, made of particles as well). Wouldn't it seem, with the technology of this game, they could hyper accelerate the particles within the mass it was directed towards, and tear it apart? I know this is a stretch but to me it seems it would be a reasonable deduction, that it would be a possibility within the technological parameters the game has set. Not to mention being theoretical with what we talked about above. Practical, who knows, but with unlimited amounts of energy, as the game states all the races have, very possible.

Though I have to say I am happy with the current weapon system

I agree, I am quite happy as well.

As far as coding, I am not a programmer so I wouldn't know exactly. If it were done the way I was thinking it would be done, I didn't believe it would be that difficult. Like creating a Carrier or something. (Sorry couldn't resist) Just taking existing weapons, giving the new weapon type the value of two, say beam and mass drivers. (of course since it is really neither, it would be weaker than if it were just say... A beam weapon.) It could be defended by 2 different types of defense. Which means in order to be completely effective against it, you would have to build your ships with 2 different defense values.

We already said a sonic weapon in a vacuum would need a way to travel with particles. Light or the laser could serve as the particle stream, and Mass drivers could serve as the actual mass that would reverberate and cause the sonic dmg.

Whoa I understand now.

Glad I could help.   

Now with the Sonic Weapons we are talking about. Using a beam of particles, hyper accelerated ( I guess Harmonics )so that densely packed particles are moving rapidly within the stream, coming into contact with a mass (Ship, made of particles as well). Wouldn't it seem, with the technology of this game, they could hyper accelerate the particles within the mass it was directed towards, and tear it apart? I know this is a stretch but to me it seems it would be a reasonable deduction, that it would be a possibility within the technological parameters the game has set. Not to mention being theoretical with what we talked about above. Practical, who knows, but with unlimited amounts of energy, as the game states all the races have, very possible.

You have the basic idea here, but you are lacking the generation of the sound wave through the beam of particles. Just shooting the beam of particles would make it a mass driver weapon. By hyper accelerating a dence beam of particles you would make them very hot and you would have yourself a hot beam of plasma. Generate an intense sound wave through that beam of hot plasma, particularly at the resonating frequency of the opposing ship's armor, and you will see some real moving and shaking and ripping going on.

Light or the laser could serve as the particle stream, and Mass drivers could serve as the actual mass that would reverberate and cause the sonic dmg.

Unfourtionately light particles cannot be used as a medium through which sound can move. You would need something nice and heavy. A gas or really any other element would work nicely though the heaver the better. So the mass driver would send the stream of particles, and the actual reverberating mass would be the enemy ship's hull.

The only problem I can see with this would be keeping the stream concentrated. In space I would think that there would be a tendency for the particles in the stream to drift away. Solve that problem and you've got it. Considering plasma based weapons are already in the game...

Which gets me thinking. Why are the plasma weapons classified as beam weapons, when plasma is defined as a hot, i mean very hot, mass of ionized particles. I'll probably think of it later. I need sleep now.

You have the basic idea here, but you are lacking the generation of the sound wave through the beam of particles

That is about all your going to get from me is basic. It is the job of future scientist to figure the rest of it out. Again, if they can generate black holes, they should be able to.....

Generate an intense sound wave through that beam of hot plasma, particularly at the resonating frequency of the opposing ship's armor, and you will see some real moving and shaking and ripping going on.

Great conversation! Thanks again all.

Then what do our armed forces have mounted on their tanks over in Iraq? Silly one.

Sonic Death Scream Ray?

Sonic Death Scream Ray?

I doubt that anyone mounts sonic death rays on their tanks in real life. Though if you want to use them I would recommend playing "X-Com: Terror from the Deep" as mentioned earlier in the thread. It's a great game, and reducing alien scum into bags of jelly is very much an enjoyable part of it.

*Floater Commander has gone Berserk*
Muh ha ha.

Ah, X-Com. Thanks to the joys of DOS emulation (shudder), new users can still discover the awesomness of those games.

Anyway, quick sanity/definition check: if we had a weapon that summoned mass between an enemy ship and us, would the weapon really be a sonic weapon? Or would it be something else that was analogically similar?

Anyway, quick sanity/definition check: if we had a weapon that summoned mass between an enemy ship and us, would the weapon really be a sonic weapon? Or would it be something else that was analogically similar?

It would only be a sonic weapon, IF, you send a sound wave through that mass. Else it would just be another mass driver.

So basically you'd shoot a cable across the void and send vibrations down it once it hit. (A plain rod would be better, but that just wouldn't work.)

Sound like a mass driver variant either way--bit like the nanoripper.

Floaters were from UFO Defence, not Terror from the Deep. TFTD had ... $#!t, I don't know what the equivalent was in TFTD. Maybe Tasoth? Or Deep Ones?

Floaters were from UFO Defence, not Terror from the Deep. TFTD had ... $#!t, I don't know what the equivalent was in TFTD. Maybe Tasoth? Or Deep Ones?

I know.  But it was still pretty amazing when I finally got it to happen for the first time in game. But relating floaters to species from TFTD I would probably have to say gillmen actually.

Getting back on topic though, you pretty much have the ide with the cable, though I did like the image of doing it through a beam of hot plasma.

I did think of another way to accomplish it though. You could just launch a module at the enemy ship that would attach to te hull. Then you could send the sound waves right through the armor without ever having to maintain a connection between the two ships. Though it does make it seem like a mass driver though.

If ever implimented maybe it could just be an offshoot tech off of one of the mass driver weapons. Call it sonic weaponry. Researching it would give a weapon component for ships that could be given mass driver damage. It could also produce an invasion tactic.

I did think of another way to accomplish it though. You could just launch a module at the enemy ship that would attach to te hull. Then you could send the sound waves right through the armor without ever having to maintain a connection between the two ships. Though it does make it seem like a mass driver though.

Actually, I'd think it'd be more like a missile. Or a mass driver... but, yes, it depends on how the emitter is delivered to the target. Using a magnetic accelerator to shunt it down towards the enemy ship at immense speeds, or carried by a self-guiding missile.

... Curious. Once you get down to the end sets of techs, aren't missiles supposed to move at superluminal speeds, supported by a warp-field generator? What of mass drivers? The projectile would have to also have a warp-field generator to keep up with the missile tech and surpass it in usefulness. Otherwise, the mass driver would be slower and thus essentially useless compared to a missile, as it could only launch the projectile at sub-luminal speeds.