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We have Projectile waepons, Energy Beam weapons, and Missile weapons.

We have Projectile waepons, Energy Beam weapons, and Missile weapons.

How about Energy Pulse Weapons?

Well I was thinking, we have the guns, missiles, and Beam weapons.

Wouldn't pulse weapons be good also?

Energy pulses.

Now I am not sure how they would be advantageous, but I have a few ideas:

Either:
Far smaller, but all defences defend against it decently.
Far Ceaper, but all defences defend against it decently.
Easier to research, but all defences defend against it decently.

Maybe Have them be smaller, cheaper, but more effective against armour than guns, but effected by both shields and missile defences?

I don't know: So lets speculate and think about it!
44,604 views 110 replies
Reply #52 Top
I'm confused now: is this thread for real?


Yes, it's for real. Just doing a little creative astrophysics, that's all.
Reply #53 Top
Then what do our armed forces have mounted on their tanks over in Iraq? Silly one.


Are you confusing Paladin Tanks from C&C: Generals with real tanks? Because The M1 Abrams doesn't have anti-missile lasers (much as we'd love to mount them), and the real Paladin Tank is a 'mobile gun' - an artillery piece.
Reply #54 Top
Are you confusing Paladin Tanks from C&C: Generals with real tanks? Because The M1 Abrams doesn't have anti-missile lasers (much as we'd love to mount them), and the real Paladin Tank is a 'mobile gun' - an artillery piece.


OMG he's talking about lazer DESIGNATORS, which very common, both hand-held and vehicle mounted.
Reply #55 Top
And, actually, we have laser weapons as well.

I read a defense expo pamphlet my old man brought home from when he worked at the now-defunct company Systems Resources Corporation. My mother's emplyer, Titan Systems, has a hand in the development for the GPS systems used to implement command and control.

Very cool stuff, and our first step into the realm of sci-fi.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nautilus_laser

Here are some other examples of projects on the rise.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airborne_laser
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_tactical_laser

Alot of people doubt the accuracy of Wikipedia; but I don't. Thinktanks are almost never wrong, and if they are, someone else will correct it. But no matter what you take from it, remember that there is a seed of truth in everything.
Reply #56 Top
We're still very far from an actual laser weapon. The laser systems used(not really used, but in existence) now are just anti-missile defenses with huge power consumptions. At this point, laser defense systems are in no way better than a missile defense system such as the Patriot. And laser designators are not weapons, they're targetting aids for guided weaponry like cruise missiles.
Reply #57 Top
Thank you very much. That was all I was saying. Wow, sometimes it's just too simple.


Ya, it is quite simple.

But you know, simple minds...
Reply #58 Top
Wow... you guys really took the ball and ran with this one.

Lasers exist.
A tree falls in the woods with no one around, does it emit sound?
An astronaut throws a baseball at the space shuttle in orbit, does it emit a sound inside the shuttle? Outside the shuttle? Both? Neither?
Sound travels in Waves.
Light travels in Waves.
Energy in general travels in Waves.
Barry Bonds uses Performance enhancing drugs.
Not all sounds are audible.
Not all light is visible.
Mountain Dew is a carbonated beverage.
Canada and Mexico ARE in North America.
Weebles Wobble but they don't fall down.
Smurfs are Blue.

Bottom line, we humans have not unlocked all the secrets to life or to the universe. Just because we think it works one way doesn't mean it actually does.


Reply #59 Top
Light exhibits dual properties, in being both a wave and a particle. Sound is simple friction of particles, and in space, nothing can rub together. Light is made of photons, and that is why it travels through vacuum.
And energy in general travels in waves? Huh?
Reply #60 Top
And energy in general travels in waves? Huh?


That's a 'Huh?' from me, as well...

... I think you're doing a better job of explaining it Regicide. Sound waves carry better (that is, last longer and over greater distances) with a medium such as water. This is why creatures such as cetaceans have evolved to use echolocation in water. Air does a decent job, too, but the particles are more spaced out. Metal can transfer sonic vibrations pretty well- example: striking a large metal tank with a wrench. It resonates. The tuning fork, as well. This is why people on the inside of a craft might be able to hear things impacting upon their hull.. but sound in space... It's not a matter of hearing it - it's more likely a matter of instruments used for recording of information being unable to detect sound waves in space. Scientists have likely done the experiments necessary and used the proper monitoring hardware.

And energy doesn't travel in waves. Not necessarily, anyway. The energy that runs your computer is in the form of electron particles traveling along conductive material. Nothing wave-based about that. It's all about particles travelling along a defined path, constrained by the force exerted by other particles.
Reply #61 Top
And energy in general travels in waves? Huh?


And energy doesn't travel in waves. Not necessarily, anyway.


Well does it or doesn't it?

I work for a rather large Power Company on the Eastern Seaboard of the United States so let us take a deeper look into this statement of mine shall we?

Water, for instance travels in waves. This natural motion can be used to create the energy that powers your computer. Air, gusts of wind, the jet stream, also a form of natural occurrence if also harnessed, can power your computer. Electric companies supply power to commercial and residential customers. It is focused energy pushed from a source to the consumer through conductors of varying forms, amplified or stepped down depending on the need. Where does that energy come from? Well the power lines you say? Ermmm... The Energy is created by several different methods. Water, Wind, Heat, and Nuclear reactions to name just a few. Lets not just look at the end result...

The energy that runs your computer is in the form of electron particles traveling along conductive material.


but rather the origin of the energy itself.

I did not say all forms of energy travel in waves, go back, take a look. I said energy in general, meaning most forms. Of course now I should clarify, speaking raw energy, not harnessed.

Broken down Sesame Street style of course. If a more detailed explanation is needed, I shall give one.

Lastly, my overall point I guess was completely missed. We are not so far advanced as to think we know what is out there and what is not. What we as humans think we know may or may not be accurate. Again, just because someone says it is so and they have run the most comprehensive and technologically advanced tests to prove it, does not make it so. Somewhere, Somehow, Someday, someone will come up with new tests and new tech to disprove claims. Or simply re-define the term. Pluto is no longer a planet for instance. Although it was for 76 some odd years, the word planet is re-defined and bang. No more Pluto.

I love a great debate and you guys are the best! I also love sarcasm and I do not mean to offend.
Reply #62 Top
*laughs* ... Aye, this is quite good.

And yes, you are very right about us not knowing everything and things we think are certain being proven wrong. I think even Einstein's not infallible?

But, still... back to the subject that started this. The likelihood of sonics being all that effective in space is questionable. There's probably a way, I suppose, but I figure it's so inefficient that it'd probably be better just to forget it. I mean, it'd be travelling at the speed of sound, only, and, in space, that's really quite slow. You want supersonic and possibly superluminal (for the torpedoes capable of sustaining their own warp fields and thus maintaining warp speed of the launching craft beyond its warp field- as the torpedoes in Star Trek function). It would just be far too short-ranged.

As I said before, Microwaves might be a great type of wave to utilize for space weaponry. Just about any wave other than sonic.

If anything, the speed of sonic waves makes them unlikely for space combat.
Reply #63 Top
The likelihood of sonics being all that effective in space is questionable.


I agree completely. Still the thought is mesmerizing to an extent.

Imagine a weapon that you can not see, or detect. Fired in a single focused burst.
Undetectable. We think of a sonic weapon as only traveling the speed of sound. What is the speed of sound I ask? It is what is determined by our atmosphere. If there is no resistance, and a way can feasibly be harnessed to release such a focused burst of sonic energy in a vacuum, then when it makes contact with it's target the vibrations would tear it apart.

In the Galciv2 game we are talking about technologies so far advanced, traveling to distant solar systems in mere weeks, weapons that create mini black holes for Gods sake! A weapon using vibration to destroy it's target. Is that a stretch? How delivered is up for debate, no question about that but who really cares in the end? If it makes for good Science Fiction so be it!

Reply #64 Top
The only way I can imagine a sonic(transfers and magnifies vibration to match target's resonating frequency, or to distort with an expanding centrical wave along the surface, for example) weapon in space is to first use a particle beam to maintain a stream of particles between your and the enemy ship, and then use some kind of resonator to excite a wave that is supposed to rip the hull on a molecular level.
And Quixen, I'm glad we have the same idea about arguing. So let's do it some more
Heat is widely regarded as the most basic form of energy. It is defined as molecular, atomic or even subatomic movement in a given object. It doesn't travel in waves, but in a continuous, centrical, outward-expanding radiation that is decreasing in power as the temperature difference decreases. Heat in waves exists only when an artificial, oscillating source is used(friction, stroke engines etc.), so it is based on the source. The same is true with electrons. First, the DC was discovered, a non-oscillating constant stream of electrons, more compatible with batteries and accumulators than generators. Then came the AC, with an oscillating curve in which electrons moved continuously between two points, in order to maximise effeciency. This was much more compatible with generators, but first devices ran into trouble when trying to sraighten it. No matter how you try, a straightened AC current will always display some small amount of waveform. But once again, it is because it is built that way, not it's inherent property.
Reply #65 Top
And Quixen, I'm glad we have the same idea about arguing. So let's do it some more


Sounds like a plan Sir Regicide.

Heat is widely regarded as the most basic form of energy. It is defined as molecular, atomic or even subatomic movement in a given object. It doesn't travel in waves, but in a continuous, centrical, outward-expanding radiation that is decreasing in power as the temperature difference decreases.


Point taken to an extent. Re-read your definition sir. Continuous, centrical, outward-expanding, decreasing in power. Sounds like a wave to me. Throw a Rock into a large puddle... You get the same definition as pointed out above. Add other natural forces to heat, not just a fire sir, and a wave is what you will end up with.

Heat in waves exists only when an artificial, oscillating source is used


Two words. Micro Burst. Granted this is a combination of forces but heat plays a major factor and does travel in a wave form.

Again, do read what I wrote above.....
The Energy is created by several different methods. Water, Wind, Heat, and Nuclear reactions to name just a few.


Lastly Mr. Regicide, I understand the principles behind AC and DC currents if I did not I wouldn't have a job.

Have to cut this one short. Will be back tomorrow night to pick up where you may leave off. Till then all!
Reply #66 Top
Point taken to an extent. Re-read your definition sir. Continuous, centrical, outward-expanding, decreasing in power. Sounds like a wave to me. Throw a Rock into a large puddle... You get the same definition as pointed out above. Add other natural forces to heat, not just a fire sir, and a wave is what you will end up with.

Waves oscillate, they are not continuously decreasing in power, they are decrease-increase-decrease and so on, but their net effect is increase(resonating wave, remember Chernobyl), decrease(throw a rock in the water), or neutral(AC power). Heat normally travels in a single positive increase that loses difference over time, and is not yet a wave. A Micro Burst works the same way, but on a smaller level, and is not a wave in itself, but happens suddenly and causes feedback Micro Bursts that, when looked at as a whole, may seem like a wave. Note that modern SciFi uses wave for almost anything(another popular SciFi word, like Flux, Configuration, Phase etc...).
EDIT: P.S. Dude, do you have any idea how far off topic we are?
Reply #67 Top
Hahaha.....
Yeah we are pretty far off topic I guess. I will attempt to get us back on track here, place your bets, place your bets. Oh and by the way, I never view a verbal confrontation as an argument. To me everything is possible, therefore, I debate. When I am wrong and am clearly proven so, I am always the first to admit it. You have brought up some good points and now I wish to address them..... or debate them if you will.   

A wave is a disturbance that propagates through space or space-time, often transferring energy. While a mechanical wave exists in a medium (which on deformation is capable of producing elastic restoring forces), waves of electromagnetic radiation (and probably gravitational radiation) can travel through vacuum, that is, without a medium. Waves travel and transfer energy from one point to another, with little or no permanent displacement of the particles of the medium (there is little or no associated mass transport); instead there are oscillations around fixed positions.

Sound is a mechanical wave that propagates through air, liquid or solids and is of a frequency detected by the auditory system. Seismic waves are similar, most often as the result of tectonic movement. This type of wave can be produced through several different types of Mediums, Linear, bounded, uniform and isotropic.

Radio waves, Microwaves, infrared rays, visible light, ultraviolet rays, x-rays and gamma rays make up electromagnetic radiation. In this case, propagation is possible without a medium, through vacuum. Which brings me to my point. Break heat down to it's most basic form ( the causes ) and it can, at times, travel within a wave.

Heat tends to move from a high temperature region to a low temperature region. This heat transfer may occur by conduction or radiation. In engineering, the term convective heat transfer is used to describe the combined effects of conduction and fluid flow and is regarded as a third mechanism of heat transfer.

Conduction is the most common form of heat transfer in a solid. It occurs when hot, rapidly moving or vibrating atoms and molecules interact with neighboring atoms and molecules, transferring some of their energy ( heat ) to these neighboring atoms. In insulators the heat flux is carried almost entirely by phonon vibrations. A phonon is a quantized mode of vibration and plays a major role in many of the physical properties of solids, including a material's thermal and electrical conductivities. In particular, the properties of long-wavelength phonons gives rise to sound in solids. ( Harmonics ) Which in turn brings us to frequencies. Whoa...... Did I just make a connection between heat and sound? Get Out! Damn I'm Good!   

Convection is usually the dominant form of heat transfer in liquids and gases. Combining the effects of conduction and fluid flow. In convection, enthalpy transfer occurs by the movement of hot or cold portions of the fluid together with heat transfer by conduction. Two types of convection are commonly distinguished, free convection, in which gravity and buoyancy forces drive the fluid movement, and forced convection, where a fan, stirrer, or other means is used to move the fluid.

Radiation is the only form of heat transfer that can occur in the absence of any form of medium and as such is the only means of heat transfer through a vacuum. Thermal radiation is a direct result of the movements of atoms and molecules in a material. Since these atoms and molecules are composed of charged particles (protons and electrons), their movements result in the emission of electromagnetic radiation. The frequencies (harmonics) of the emitted photons are described by the Planck distribution. A black body at higher temperature will emit photons having a distributional peak at a higher frequency than will a colder object, and their respective spectral peaks ( Light wavelengths ) will be separated. Whenever electromagnetic radiation is emitted and then absorbed, heat is transferred. This principle is used in Microwaves, laser cutting and RF hair removal.

Now, I have made a very basic connection between energy, heat, waves, sound, and light. No, not all variations travel in wave form, but at least one variant in each does, thus if we significantly enhance our technology, a variation of a sonic weapon, capable of being used in a vacuum may be feasible. Will it be anything close to what we think of as being a sonic weapon? Probably not, but as we have seen above, the possibility is out there, or at least it seems.

What does this mean for the game? Well, if there was a way in my opinion, to assign 2 different attacking values to the weapon...... somewhat like you were saying Regicide, an alternate way to deliver the sonic weapon,

The only way I can imagine a sonic(transfers and magnifies vibration to match target's resonating frequency, or to distort with an expanding centrical wave along the surface, for example) weapon in space is to first use a particle beam to maintain a stream of particles between your and the enemy ship, and then use some kind of resonator to excite a wave that is supposed to rip the hull on a molecular level.


then you could effectively have a fourth type of weapon but maintain only three different types of dmg. Spreading the ( Sonic ) dmg over 2 different defensive abilities.

So now I have managed to get us back on topic as well! Man I am having so much fun.... screw the game!
Reply #68 Top
OMG, I can't believe it! One post to put us back on track!
Yes, everything you said is a fact, most of the things that surround us can travel in waves. Half of those things travel in waves by default(sound), the other half travels in a kind of a straight line pattern(heat). That is, if the medium is uniform, because heat for example can move in waves in some irons and steels because of the crystal formations inside, where denser regions contact regions of lower density. See, I never said it can't travel in waves, but that more often than not it doesn't.
And now for the actual weapon. Currently, the game mechanics don't allow two different types of damage on a single weapon, and I doubt that will change any time soon, even in DA. And making the actual weapon into two different components acquired by one research is a kind of a bad idea from a balance perspective, IMHO.
Reply #69 Top
Energy in general travels in Waves.


This comment prompted......

And energy in general travels in waves? Huh?


Since some wanted a more detailed explanation of what I was trying to say, I figured I would oblige them. Just defending my statement.

See, I never said it can't travel in waves, but that more often than not it doesn't.


My point, and I must say we may find ourselves in disagreement about heat. I believe it travels more often in waves then not. The comments in my last post pointed out my opinion on this matter.

making the actual weapon into two different components acquired by one research is a kind of a bad idea from a balance perspective


I agree with you on this point, if you look back at my very first post I pretty much said the same thing......

Personally I do not see the need, would make things interesting but arent they interesting enough as it is already?


and again in my second post......

Again, I care less either way, was just trying to get what I thought was the original posters idea across a little better.


The funny thing is all the nay sayers about the subject seemed to disappear into the wood work when the real debate began to take form about the idea of pulse weapons. Except for you Sir Regicide and Mr PaladinStorm. I commend you both for sticking to your guns and spear heading a great debate.  

May we have many more and find ourselves on the same side every now and again.

Reply #70 Top
Aye aye! Not just the naysayers, we pretty much had the thread all to our selves
May we meet again!
Reply #72 Top
Science talk awesome.

The energy that runs your computer is in the form of electron particles traveling along conductive material. Nothing wave-based about that.


Just to clarify, electrons do travel in waves. Technically all matter travels in waves. This is according to Schrödinger's Wave Equation. The equation first refered to photons but later to all matter after experimentation. It was De Broglie who first thought that all matter may travel in waves. If you wanted to you can even calculate your own wavelength. You just can't observe it because, relative to a photon or an electron you are immensively massive, and the more massive an object the samller the wavelength gets. Quote and Wikipedia links follow.


The wave and particle nature of electrons was experimentally observed in 1927, two years after the discovery of the Schrödinger equation.


Schrödinger link.
WWW Link

De Broglie Link


WWW Link
Reply #73 Top
Your "wavelength" is your resonating frequency. Not exactly the same thing. It's because theories like these the most accepted one is the duality of properties.
Electrons in current travel in waves because of two reasons:
1. Material density - sometimes, such as in nonabsolute martensite steel, where the medium has different crystal cells
2. AC current.
In DC current, electrons travel by replacing each other. Think of a diode display with two colors that travel from left to righ, for example.
Reply #74 Top
No offence or anything, but when I say wavelength, I do mean it. If you look at the first equation given in the De Broglie link it clearly states that the lambda symbol stands for wavelength.

You are right to mention the crystal though, but I doubt that there is anything that can force something traveling through it to act as a wave, only to have that thing revert to traveling as a particle again later.

An experiment. Link provided.
In 1927 at Bell Labs, Clinton Davisson and Lester Germer fired slow moving electrons at a crystalline nickel target. The angular dependence of the reflected electron intensity was measured, and was determined to have the same diffraction pattern as those predicted by Bragg for X-Rays.


X-rays are a high energy form of light, which as we know travels as a wave. Since the electrons exhibited the same diffraction pattern as the X-rays did wouldn't that show that the electrons travel in a wave as well. Also diffraction is a property specific to waves. Seeing that the electrons form a diffraction pattern at all shows that they travel as waves.

Quotes and Link from another Wikipedia article about diffraction.
WWW Link

Diffraction refers to the various phenomena associated with wave propagation


It is the diffraction of "particles," such as electrons, which stood as one of the powerful arguments in favor of quantum mechanics. It is possible to observe diffraction of particles such as neutrons or electrons and hence we are able to infer the existence of wave-particle duality. Indeed, this diffraction is a useful tool; the wavelengths of these particle-waves are small enough that they are used as probes of the atomic structure of crystals. See electron diffraction and neutron diffraction.



You are right when you say that electrons replace each other as they travel under a DC current, but an AC current does not force the electrons to travel as waves. The electrons just change their dirrection of movement every time the current changes sign. The electrons do however, travel in waves as they move through the empty space between each atom in the circuitry.
Reply #75 Top
Basically a pulse weapon falls into several different catagories:

Sonic pulse: This currently being looked at by the American military as a possible new "soft weapon" a weapon that incapcitates instead of killing.

Energy pulse: This one can really be placed into to sub catagories
Light pulse: Basically its a pulsed laser, which can have the same effect as a laser but saves vastly on power consumption.



lasers and beams, DON'T EXIST ( well exept for laser pointers and such),
er lets see here...


US military is already fielding these weapons(not on a wide array but our special forces have it[I know this because I live/work with them currently in Baghdad] and use them quite effectively)

We field a light pulse type infrared laser that basically gives you nasty glorified "sunburn" when exposed to it great for dispersing rowdy crowds

And we also have some kind of sonic concussion pulsing device (circa Minority Report) its bulky and huge but has its uses (opsec =/ ) and works. Its alot more reliable than a taser anyways....


and energy is a force that does work really no pure form. that given, it exists in wave form (debate to hell guys light is still recognized as both a wave form and an abstract object of itself "light energy") and mr evil stormbringer is correct space isnt empty. Just imagine how much "stuff" is floating in this expanse. The molecule density of any given object or matter form on earth is enormous and given the fact that everything strives to reach equilibrium, all molecules in the universe, eventually, will expand and disappear evenly spaced and dispersed(hence why all the galaxies are moving apart) If you wonder why it hasnt happened yet its because of certain events that other forces are introduced (gravity greatly slows this dispersal) anyways energy (wave energy anyways) can travel easily in space. If you cant believe this how does our sattelite system work? or maybe how is it when we launch long range exploration aircraft to the fringes of our solar system we can recieve signals back( albiet a long long time from transmission ULF is not the way to go but the most dependable way i guess)

so how does this have to do with anything? I dunno you people posted some crap and I keep getting side tracked

Darn ADD maybe I made sense?