Religious War

Sorry for saying holy cities twice.  

Its laughable to think that religion will have no bearing on the distant future. So called wise men have been saying for millenia that the gods would lose thier power over humanity. And guess what. Hear we are in the year 2006 and world politics still revolve around religion. People who say religion has been replaced by science are seriously mislead, nothing can replace a religion, because religon is never replaced. It just evolves to a superior form based on changes in a society. also religion has played a vital role in societies throughout history. how else does a culture reatin its values but by naming them sacred and uncompromising. I personaly dont think that is a bad thing. I mean lets say you do something a certain way all your life. If your told to do it another way are'nt you gonna wonder why you just cant do it the way you had done it the whole time. Well that went on way too long. Simply put,the future will see its fair share of religios beliefs. And those beleifs will create tensions or bring people together. To think otherwise is foolish. Humans have a deep need to worship or be a part of something greater than themselves. they may not consiously call it god, but they do treat it that way. That isnt something that can just go away.

The idea is good. You have thought it out very well. congrats. I know many would accuse Stardock of copying Civ4, but really if its a good idea it should be in, because Im just sick of alignment. Maybe there could be different variations of a religion that correspond with alignment. Like one sect of a religion could be a death cult, while the other follows its religion in name only, and at the other end of the spectrum we could have some kind of unite the galay under our loving banner kinda thing. Good idea. I like it

Fun idea, I like it aswell! It shouldn't have an impact on fighting units only though, of course. But have an impact on your civilization as a whole... I don't really know how, plain bonus/ penalties to (whatever, morale, influence, etc) just like political parties doesn't sound that interesting.

And a question, would "religions" have to be researched? sounds weird... but maybe you could choose a "basic" religion (or have it attached to your race?), then be able to developp it in a way or another through the "xeno ethics" tech tree?

you would need to have some chance of stopping them or have the whole thing back fire on them like it did in the usa and 9/11

I think there is enough religion in the game already.

Political Selections come to mind.

War party, can be thought of easily as worshiping the gods of war for their race.
Technologists, scientology.

Yes those are but two examples but each political selection comes with it's advantage. Which if taken into consideration, one can conclude that religion and one races beliefs, leads to ones political motivation, giving them that particular advantage.

So technically in my opinion, religion is already in the game, you just have to read between the lines.

Actually, there already is religion (and religious wars) in the game.

The game lore links ethics to religion, hence why each ethical path has a "Temple" improvement. You can see this in the text for alignment-changing random events, in which the shift in ethics is attributed to a major religious movement.

I am not so sure about the temple improvements being religious Icons.
I mean the word temple in and of itself certainly applies to religion, but maybe not in this case. My reasoning behind this thought is the Good/Neutral/Evil aspect of the game. Just because you are evil does not mean you practice a certain religion, you could be purely evil and believe in nothing. Same goes for being Good.

Now if you lump all religions that are aligned with each other (evil with evil) into the same category, this may be the case, but awfully simplistic in thought. Who is to say which religions are truly evil and which are truly good? If broken up into a broader scope... IE political parties for instance, truly you can see where the similarities are in definition, and it gives it a deeper more profound meaning, instead of just good and evil.

For game purposes and simplicity, religion and philosophy are combined into ethics in GalCiv 2.

It's difficult to assign (and justify to irate practitioners) the precise advantages and disadvantages of a given religion as they pertain to game purposes. If they did it with existing religions, it would be immensely controversial, and would provide no advantages beyond the current system. If they made up religions, it would be harder on the player---"okay, I've never heard of X or Y, so which one is better for me as a good-aligned conquering civ?" It would also be unrealistic to pretend that modern religions suddenly disappeared after several thousand years.

I think it's fine that they just lump it all into ethics. I know for sure I'd enjoy that more than if they tried to implement my religion and did a crap job of it.

Alot of "futuristic" science fiction has religion as a focal point. Dune, Reality Dysfunction, and Hyperion come to mind. I don't think religion per se will die out just because a society becomes more scientifically advanced.

I agree with both the last posts, the only thing I contend is that :

Which if taken into consideration, one can conclude that religion and one races beliefs, leads to ones political motivation, giving them that particular advantage.

I believe your political affiliation can/does play a role in the religious aspect of the game.

I like your idea!   Would definatly make the game more realistic, since there will always be cultist fanatics with a death wish.

Religion is linked to culture and ethics in the game. One can assume that religion pays a big role in cultural conversion of civilizations and in the civilizations ethical code.

Developing the seperate distinct nature of your civilizations dominant religions would be part of the culture tech, while developing the core principles of your dominant religions would be part of the ethical techs.

Adding religion as a seperate aspect of the game, is well an interesting idea, as at present all religions are really unsuited to alien life forms and I think there would be a huge theological schism between those who believe gods message is meant for humans and god has his own plans with the aliens and those who believe they have a destiny to convert aliens too to the true faith. The first religious tech would be xeno-conversion, that is the adaption of the religion to aliens, which would increase your ability to convert worlds of other religions. Basically if you share a religion+an ethical alignment you get even greater relations bonus, while if you have a different religion+an ethical alignment world under your influence, it is easier to convert if their civilization is of a different religion to the world and that world is of your civilization's religion.

I can think of the following 8 basic general religions for all civilizations, human and alien.

Monotheism- Belief in one god which is held to have made the universe.
Dualtheism- Belief in the universe as the result of two gods, one of which created each thing and the other it's opposite.
Poliytheism- Belief in multiple gods, holding power over different aspects of the universe.
Philosophical- Belief in transcendant philosophical concepts as goals for life, without much emphasis on divinity.
Athiesm- A lack of belief in gods or transcendant philosophical concepts.
Precursor worship- A belief in the divine nature of the precursers.
Agnosticism- A lack of strong belief for or against any particular religious concept.
Magical- A belief in wielding and/or contacting with supernatural forces and entities, to chosen ends.

Each of these would have 5 opposed techs, to be researched and representing the religions development either away from it's original roots or towards them and a final 6th unified religious tech, which requires an advanced research tree tech, close to the tech victory to research and an original tech based on converting aliens.

My proposal for the religious techs for monotheism would be thus

Xeno-conversion (requires universal translator)- Before now, our religion was essentially focused exclusively on the texts handed down to us by our ancesters and even as we made contact with alien life forms, we did not presume to share those texts with them. With the help of the universal translator, we have translated those texts, not merely in word but also in meaning so that aliens can understand them.
Allows us to send missionaries to alien worlds.

Now there would be the five forms of research, one of them would be religious universalism while the other would be religious exclusivism.

Religious universalism-

1. Universal divine plan- We have realised, due to our religious exchanges with other civilizations, that other species have been endowed by god with more or less the same religious understanding and each has their unique part in the divine plan. When god made them all, he understood that they immediately needed different texts and the time has come to apprecitate this.
Diplomacy when dealing with other monotheist civilizations +5

2. Basic religious synthesis- Our understanding of the divine plan, has began to coalesce with that of the other aliens who believe in one god, at least in the fundermental respects
Diplomacy when dealing with other monotheist civilizations +5
Religious conversion effectiveness- +5%

3. Advanced religious synthesis- We now have developed a common theology with those aliens who believe in one god which is understood by the aliens.

Diplomacy when dealing with other monotheist civilizations +5
Religious conversion effectiveness- +5%
Cultural influence- -5%

4. Universal revelations- New prophets have begun to recieve revalations which are relavant to all species, without any need for a great deal of translation. We now see that god's plan is adressed to the entire galaxy, to an even greater extent.

Diplomacy when dealing with other monotheist civilizations +5
Religious conversion effectiveness- +10%
Cultural influence -10%

5. Common Faith- We now have a common faith, absorbing the worthwhile elements of all alien civilizations. The dream of religious unity is close at hand.
Religious conversion effectiveness- +10%
Influence- -10%

Religious paternalism-

1. Religious elitism- We have realised due to the contact of our brave missionaries with the aliens, that alien religions are hopelessly corrupt and misguided in their religious beliefs. We alone were given the true divine plan, although it is our duty to share it with the aliens as long as they renounce their false beliefs, our species has a unique relationship with the divine.
Conversion resistance- +5%
Influence- +5%
Diplomacy -5%

2. Religious obsuritanism- Our texts have been refined to the point that, it is more or less impossible for any unenlightened alien to understand it, except with one our species to interpret it. By this way we can ensure foul xeno-heresies do not creep into our religion.
Conversion resistance- +5%
Influence- +5%
Diplomacy -5%

3. Strict religious dogma- We have begun to identify and categorise our dogmas in the finest detail to the point that it should be near impossible for xeno-heresies to creep in without detections.
Conversion resistance- +5%
Influence +10%
Diplomacy -5%

4. Religious purity- We have finally purified our religion of heresy, whether alien or not. We can now be certain in our faith that we possess the only true divine revelation and those who doubt this will be silenced.
Conversion resistance- +10%
Diplomacy- -10%

5. Manifest destiny- We have a devine mandate, to preach to all other species the truth and this goes in hand in hand with the power of humanity. Those who oppose the will of humanity, defy god's will.

Influence +10%
Diplomacy -10%
Conversion resistance- +5%

The Final tech
Divine understanding- As our species unlocks the last secrets of the universe, we now know the full extent of god's power and the full extent of his transcendance. Our existing theology, fits we believe quite well into the picture. Science and theology are now in complete harmony as the two have finally merged into one.

Research- +10%
Influence- +10%
Religious conversion- +10%
Conversion resistance- -10%
Diplomacy- +10

The basic system is each tech is not compatable with it's opposite number, although you can combine techs of different levels together. So you can have basic synthesis with religious elitism, but not religious elitist and universal divine plan.

You have some great ideas GoblinCookie. I especially liked the Dualtheism idea. It has the yin & yang thing going for it. I didn't like philosophical or magical as seperate religions. They seem to be better as styles of cults. I also got some different ideas for some other types of religions as well. I was going to make posts about holy units next, but now I'll do the religion list and the Good Yor post next. If you stop to see it, I would really like some suggestions for religion names. Thanks!!  

lots of very detailed stuff above

I'm impressed that anybody did the work to flesh the idea out, and GoblinCookie definitely gets mad props for doing it. However, it also illustrates the problems that implementing religion into the game would have (and I say that as a person for whom a religion is a substantial part of my own life).

as at present all religions are really unsuited to alien life forms and I think there would be a huge theological schism between those who believe gods message is meant for humans and god has his own plans with the aliens and those who believe they have a destiny to convert aliens too to the true faith.

Many people in those religions would disagree. I suspect that a pantheist, for example, would find their worldview applicable to aliens as well. Certainly it's difficult to characterize all religions as being equally easy or hard to port to an alien civilization. Now, this is up for debate in real life, but in game you'd need to come down on one side of it in order to implement it in the game. You could do this, but then you'd code assumptions about each religion in the game itself. That this could be a thorny issue goes without saying; religion is such an important issue for so many people that it just isn't worth the risk of being offensive just for another set of bonuses in-game.

It's also worth noting that this isn't just a problem for those who consider themselves religious, either. Atheism or agnosticism are just as vulnerable to unintentional mischaracterization.

And that's not even taking into account balancing. How do you say whether, say, monotheism has a +10 or +5 conversion bonus? Adherents of a monotheistic faith might disagree, and you'd have a segment of the population that doesn't like the way you characterized their faith.

Long and short of it, implementing specific religions in-game isn't worth upsetting people in real life.

KB23, I get your ideas. However, I think that the religious ideas that people have come up with should be taken more seriously. Not that you don't, that's for sure. But I think that if you take a religious path, it should have a very strong effect upon your civ, but not upon the aliens, except in the smallest degree. Now, maybe you could make it so that those who are aligned with your ethical alignment might be somewhat influenced by your religion. That's all well and good. But I couldn't imagine the Arceans or Custon Race influencing the Thalans (insectecoids) as regards to any religion whatsoever. It could be a powerful internal idea, but not one that extends beyond your borders, except in the smallest degree. So, I think the game is right on now as it is.

For instance, in the best sci-fi to date, the Battlestar Galactica series (the new one, of course), the only reason religion matters is because the cylons are the children of the humans. If they were a totally different, alien race, what would their religion matter to those outside of their context?

In other words, what I'm saying is that I think religion could be used as a strong component, but only for one's own civ, and perhaps for a civ who is very closely related. I'm thinking here of Terrans and Altarians. They could have interesting religious affinities, as could, for instance, Yor and Iconians (and how f-ed up would that be!).

In other words, I think this is a wonderful idea, but it needs much fleshing out.