AI Using Massive Attack, Little/No Defense On Ships

they don't use them in your games? Wierd.

Uhhh... the computor uses a tactic that works. If you can build a counter then do it. Then eventually the computor will change. I dont see any problem here.

Sounds like the AI has hit upon a pretty good tactic...

build lots of small (cheap) ships with heavy offense, no defense. They'll die with one attack against them, but they will also take out almost anything out there given the simultaneous attack on both sides.

This is also what I typically do--load up my small ships with offense, and my larger ships more balanced with defense about 1/4 of the firepower I expect to encounter from one ship (i.e., if my enemy ship has 8 attack, I will provide my ships with 2 defense).

Also, the OP contradicts himself--he complains that "whats the point in defense if no one uses em", but previously said the AI does put defenses on their larger ships.

Do you have the "Allow CPU intensive algoriths" option enabled?

Thats pretty much how I design my ships. It works well, as once I build a large fleet of them, they kill the enemy ships pretty quick. I usually lose one or two, but after the early game, I have enougth planets to keep a fairly steady stream of replacements coming. Larger ships on the otherhand, I only build on high production planets, so they can't be replaced easily. So defense helps keep them alive, and with the extra space they are still able to have good attack to go along with the defense.

It's a logical strategy. Defences are expensive relative to space so unless they have a good chance of keeping a ship alive, they're a waste of money. It depends how much of a tech lead I have, but I will rarely put defences on anything smaller than a large hull.

Why is this a bad thing? I try and put half def to my off, and my ships rip through the AI with rarely any casualties. You can really tell the difference.


Has this been anyone elses experience?

I haven't had much luck with defense personally, at least later on in the game. Since attack values get so much higher without a corresponding increase in ship hit points, I rarely find it worthwhile to add defense. A medium ship with 16 hit points and 10 defense is still usually going to die in one hit against a ship with 80 attack. The only difference is that the medium with defense is going to cost more to build and have less firepower, meaning enemy ships may end up getting more shots at it.

I've tried doing the very heavy defense builds as well, and fought computer ships that used them. I still found that a rather large number of "lucky shots" got through which still caused the ship to be killed in one shot (my absolute favorite being when I lost an entire fleet of heavy defense ships in one round due to the computer getting all near max attack rolls and me getting all near minimum defense rolls). That made Pierpoint sad.

I didn't contradict myself. The AI is putting 5 defense points on a ship with 29 attack, which is pretty pointless.

If you were a pilot for one of these ships, would you really fly a death-trap with massive firepower that has no protection?

I just wish the game were more balanced and there was a point to using defenses. Not to mention all the bugs I've been encountering late in the game that ruin all the days I've spent playing by preventing me from saving (1.3b) or continuing on to the next turn (1.2 patch)

Grrrrrr.

EDIT: Yes, I am using the cpu advanced algorithms. And I just uninstalled this game. Going back to Rome Total War

Not to mention all the bugs I've been encountering late in the game that ruin all the days I've spent playing by preventing me from saving (1.3b)

There were clear warnings on both threads announcing the availability of 1.3 beta 1 stating not to download it if you were not willing to deal with potential new issues.

If you were a pilot for one of these ships, would you really fly a death-trap with massive firepower that has no protection?

Yeah, who'd ever fly a craft like that?

*hums "Top Gun" themetune*

One good reason for the AI to design ships like that is if it's the only way it can pack enough weapons in to damage your ships. Bear in mind also that even 5 points of defence significantly increases the probability of a 16hp ship surviving a hit.

As for there being a point to using defences, you're flat-out wrong. Defences are *crucial* to designing a good ship IMO; I usually work on about a 2:1 offence:defence ratio for my general purpose ships, and as a result I rarely lose ships. If you're good aligned and get all the bonus defence techs, you get an extra 15% defence bonus on top of the cheap, light special defences; I can usually manage a 3:2 ratio when playing good-alignment.

Side-note: does anyone know how often the AI gets to design ships with the CPU-intensive enabled? I think there is a case for allowing the AI a "free design" round on certain trigger events such as: declaring war, another player choosing an alignment opposed to the AI's, another player exceeding the AI's militay strength by 100%, or contacting a new player with a different alignment. Infrequent design updating is a BIG handicap IMO, and the AIs generally seem to have enough cash to pay for upgrades.

"And I just uninstalled this game. Going back to Rome Total War"

Wow, thanks for wasting everyone's time. I guess you didn't see the thread where someone posted a screenshot of a Korx Dreadnaught with over 200 defence...?

Check out my post which will show the AI does build defensive shipsWWW Link

"Geniuses" who complain that betas are buggy are always funny.
Please stay.

It's basically all about relative tech levels. Defences are a luxury that enable you to cash in on a suitably strong tech lead by building near indestructible ships. The high cost is worth it 'cos you won't have to replace them (which also has huge logistical and strategic advantages).

If you're on the wrong end of the tech race and are going up against well shielded ships, then you know you're going to lose individual battles and your only hope of success is to try and wear the enemy down by attrition. You want to inflict as much damage as you can as cheaply as possible, and smaller zero defence ships are usually the way to do that.

When you're both even, the ideal is entirely situational.

It's very funny to see somebody complaining about AI then going back to RTW.

Fun game, but I won the campaign on very hard/very hard first time I played it, and it's not as if I'm particularly experienced/good at these sort of games!

You say its "ridiculous", but your missing the point. The AIs goal is the same as yours - to destroy you. If whatever tactic they are using is working, I see no problem.

The AI will always design ships that gives the best advantage against you. If you have been building heavily defended ships, you should expect the AI to build ships like you describe with high attack in order to defeat you.

I normaly build ships with high attack, and often see the AI building heavy defenses as a result.

The AI is acting how it should.

I'd like to point out that, if you cant handle the AI's stratigies, then maybe you should turn down the difficulty settings. Otherwise, dont complain.

What I like to do is research evil and pysionic beams so that it will be almost a waste of time for the AI to build defenses, then I reseach big into defense so the enemy's lesser weapons can't really do much to my ships, when I get the time, money, and territory to do so I build fleets of large and huge ships. At that point my ships will be pretty much undefeatable.

Yes, I am using the cpu advanced algorithms. And I just uninstalled this game. Going back to Rome Total War

ROFL!

I just uninstalled this game. Going back to Rome Total War

Um, yeah... make sure you go back to their boards, too, and complain about the uber chariots and the truly awesome tactical AI that fights every battle like the consular army at Cannae - no matter who you're fighting; Greeks, Romans, Parthians, Gauls, etc.; it makes one stupid, thin line of its troops, with no thought to guarding its flanks, and runs them all straight at you. If it's really feeling saucy, the AI might even rush its general out in the very front, to be the first to perish on your massed pikes. Unless it's one of the Show Jumper cavalry units that can make a frontal charge against a phalanx and end up behind the infantry unit almost unscathed.

I still look at their discussion boards sometimes. It looks like the new Medieval game is going to feature elephant tanks with artillery mounted on their backs, among other... gems.

Veni, vidi, vomi.

playing 1.3b1.

Just finished off 2 others civs, started in on Torians. Allied with Darth. Playing as Neutral. Torians have the center of a large galaxy, and I have most of the edges and corners. Torians and I are fairly close tech wise, expect that they haven't researched defense much.

Looking at 3-5 ship fleets on both sides, with same number of ships per fleet usually- We both had 75 msl attack, but where I had fleets with 50 def, their fleet had about 5. Went threw them like a chainsaw, even with less experienced ships. Loss ratio was maybe 1 of mine to 5 of theirs. Playing on level just below painful.

Still in the middle of the fight, but I've picked up 3 of their choiest planets. Maybe 5-6 turns of fighting so far. They really haven't had time to adapt yet, and with a small amount of luck, they won't have time.

A couple of observations:

1) Torians have noted relatively high defenses on my ships for some game years. Their design is first attempt to counter.
2) Not sure that the AI is considering the higher speed of my ships- i.e. my fleets are in range of many of his assets. I have been able to attack wide and far.
3) One bit of cheese- I noticed that as my fleet attacks a planet, all ships gain xp (and thus HP) even if we only defeat one ship at a time. For the 5 ships doing serial defense, my fleet get s the benefits of 5 "battles". Ouch. I have several fleets where the medium hulls have 32 HPs (up from my base of 18HPs.)
4) The AI is relucant to come out of orbit to try to attrit my fleets. It's losing in detail this way.

Will the AI get more aggressive at higher levels?

4) The AI is relucant to come out of orbit to try to attrit my fleets. It's losing in detail this way.

There might be a bit of tactic in staying in orbit, whenever I see one of my ships in orbit of my planets they seem to have a few extra points of attack.

There is a simple way to get around this... build thousands of tiny fighters with 1 laser and 1 engine... swamp the fools

One question I'd like to know is

are fleet attack values turned into a combined attack? if I have 40 defense on my ships and they have 100 ships with attack 2 will they be able to do any damage or will my single ship nibble its way through them?

Also surely in this situation the fighter pilots would take on kamekaze tactics... especially for your species' very survival against evil aliens. That'd be interesting to see in fleet battles.

are fleet attack values turned into a combined attack? if I have 40 defense on my ships and they have 100 ships with attack 2 will they be able to do any damage or will my single ship nibble its way through them?

No. See the wikie pages on ship and fleet combats for more info:

https://www.galciv.wikia.com/wiki/Ship_combat
https://www.galciv.wikia.com/wiki/Fleet_combat

are fleet attack values turned into a combined attack?

No.

if I have 40 defense on my ships and they have 100 ships with attack 2 will they be able to do any damage or will my single ship nibble its way through them?

Depends how many hit points you have and they have. 99% of the time you'll take no damage, but that other 1% will add up cos you can only kill one per round!

But anyway, I see what you're getting at...in a real game example (maybe 1 vs 15) you'll barely get scratched.