potential problem with new planet system

In dark avatar you will only be able to colonize certain planets after having researched certain techs. Now this is a great idea (the sort of thing I lobbied for) bt I fear it will cause some annoying problems in games.

What if another race gets the tech before you and colonizes a planet right in your backyard (in the annoying way that they would colonize the class 4 planet in your home system before you would). This could be really annoying and lead to some rather odd disributions of races through the galaxy. Surely races would "claim" planets in a system, even if they couldn't colonize them.

But this is more of an indication of a bigger overall problem. This system feels a little too tacked on. I don't think it should be a matter of "either you can colonize it or you can't." Furthermore, it doesn't take into account the natural abilities and evolution of races.

*stop here if you don't like long posts*

A far more powerful and interesting idea would be to simply split the idea of planet class into two variables: habitability (how suited the planet is to support your race) and capacity (how many upgradeable squares there are).

The maximum potential capacity is determined by the size of the planet. Then you subtract squares which are water covered, have high volcanic activity, super dense jungle, or are in extremely cold areas.
Some racial abilities would alter the potential capacity. For example, an amphibious race can convert one water covered tile into a useable one. After having researched the Geological Stabilization tech, one volcanic tile would become useable etc.

The habitability determines both the maximum population and the rate of population growth (population grows at a decreasing rate, forming an asymptote at a point proportional to habitability). However, if your food output is even lower, then that will limit population instead. You also incurr higher maintenance costs per unit population for planets with low habitability, so some planets end up costing more to maintain than they bring in, explaining why we don't colonize mars (you'd get a warning before colonizing such a planet).
Some things which would affect the habitability would be atmosphere, with oxygen being best (but traits and technologies might make others just as good) or gravity (earth sized would be best, but races with the large/small traits would receive reduced penalties for large/small planets).

But the point is, all planets would be colonizable from the start (except gas giants, though perhaps there could be a tech that allowed cloud base style settlements). Some might be valid only as sensor outposts. Some might be unprofitable, but they might have unique features like large research bonuses.

I feel something like this would be a far more versatile, balanced and powerful system. It could also allow for some really interesting stuff within it's scope. A planet with agressive native lifeforms (mindworms!) receives a habitability penalty and buildings might face the risk of discussion. A planet orbitting a binary star system or with numerous moons would have more volcanic squares due to the varying graviational forces.
A lot of stuff like this is already part of the game, but it is only as "one off events," rather than integrated into the system, which is almost certainly preferable.

Additonally, this system would allow the game to look at your race's abilities when generating your homeworld, so that it looks like the kind of place they would have evolved on. The Arceans would get a large heavy gravity world, Drengis might be volcanic etc. And it doesn't need to be complicated for new players; from these two values, you can derive whether it's a good planet to colonize, and stick a smiley face over it (or whatever).

Thoughts?
11,041 views 15 replies
Reply #2 Top
Some good ideas there Seth.

Space Bovine, I don't think Seth was judging, more then he was offering some input. We can always bring out ideas when we don't know what the expansion will actually bring us, nor how soon. Don't discourage them.

Yeah Seth, read on for some other ideas that you've touched on from other players. Like perhaps bringing Class 0 worlds into the fold by slow, expensive Terraforming.

I believe that SD looks at and and considers any thoughtful posts for improvements from it's players. That is what keeps the majority of us coming back.
Reply #3 Top
I was under the impression that that was what was going to happen...

If not, hopefully we're early enough in the design cycle for SD to make the change because otherwise you're right, the AI would be colonizing planets that, while not really useful, are in the middle of your territory. It's bad enough having the AI building starbases all over the place, having their planets in your territory would be maddening!
Reply #4 Top
Sethai,

I like your ideas.
But I am hoping they give an option to use old system
or the new one.
Reply #5 Top
I don't know why you are concerned with AI's colonizing planets in your "territory", that kind of thing happens right now. Only difference is that in mid to end game, when they are likely to gain access to these techs, I am better prepared for this; if an AI wants to try and colonize a world in a system under my influence, well, more power to them, I am either going to flip the planet with my influence or take it by force. No worries on that front.

The same reason I don't worry about AI's taking my "Mars", they are just saving me the cost of the colonizer ship.

Cheers,
Reaver
Reply #6 Top
The problem (if I'm understanding your ideas correctly) is that the limiting effect on population has to be proportional to both ratings. A gigantic desert planet (low hab, high cap) should have similar pop limits (but not pop density) to a tiny, lush planet (low cap, high hab).
What you've described is a very flexible and powerful system, but I have concerns about making its effects and implications intuitive to users (sliders, anyone? ). Getting the AI to intelligently make the tradeoffs involved in colonizing under this system might also be a trick.
Reply #7 Top
I don't know what's the problem with the AI having planets in your systems. I usually left many planets (the worst ones, mind you) for the AIs and let my superior influence do the rest.   That being said, i don't dislike the idea of the first post. But i suppose that it's a matter of simplicity (streamlining?) versus complexity. In the end, Stardock's decission.

In any case, what i wonder about the basic idea proposed by Stardock is that you can only colonice the planets for which you have the required techs but... can you conquer military one for which you don't have the tech? I suppose that "gifts" or cultural flips wouldn't face such problem. There is also the problem of the second planet each civilization gets in their initial system. The Sol system's one shouldn't be colonizable until Terrans get a tech. Will the other civilizations the same problem? I thought that planet was a "gift" for the worst situation. We must consider also the map size. In a gigantic map it shouldn't be a problem.(except for those civilizations starting too close for their own good)

But a "system" that allows any planet to be colonized would be nice. If it fits your civilizations standards, you get a nice planet; while if it doesn0t, you get a lower PQ planet until you get proper techs (appart from the usual Soil Enhancement and the like, i suppose, that could only be used once you have those other new techs). Then, other planets could be only colonized (and partially) when you have Terraforming and/or other proper tech (depending of the type of planet). NOt sure about having all the planets as colonizable ones but... if we can get Beyond Mortality and stuff like that, i suppose that it makes sense that you could have a branch dedicated to make any planet into a suitable/better planet (even if it's only to raise PQ from 0 to 1...). I mean, if my Tigran Lightsabers can shoot blackholes, why shouldn't i get the knowlegede to terraform a planet into a Utopia?

That the planets have "lifeforms" and the such that affect the planet... I doubt very much we will see something like that... now. Now just in the events and because that's one way to determine Aligment. But in GalCivIII we will get Heroes so maybe we will get some more complex things then too.

 for this topic, Sethai. Even if the ideas given now aren't used for Dark Avatar, the might find their way into GalCivIII (nor sure if Frogboy will still keep that of at least two expansions for GalCivII, i would preorder it too).
Reply #8 Top
One of the joys of GalCiv2 is that it has the right mix of complexity and simplicity once you learn its mechanics. The user interface allows for simpliefied ideas to been see and for a lot of simplified variables to interact. Some things like pop=taxpayers=marines add to the mechanics and flow of the game.

Hopefully the new DA planet change will complicate things a little but still keep the understanding of the concepts simple.

I like your thoughts, maybe some of your ideas will creep in.
Reply #9 Top
I thought my idea was prettty simple really. It's just two numbers to look at instead of one, and it adds a lot more depth.

I really just want planets to be more than just a rotating orb with a number attached to them, you know? I'd like to be able to open up the window, and see a list of properties interesting properties.
"Hey, this world is bathed in perpetual darkness, due to the gas giant that's always between it and the white dwarf star at the heart of the galaxy. It's highly volcanic and populated by fire breathing lizards, but this brings lot of minerals up to the surface, making it a potentially extremely productive industrial world. It was first conquered by the yor, who called it M2-9, until a violent rebellion when it defected to the terran alliance, but now it's mine."
Reply #10 Top
hmm.. this does sound like a system used by other games...   

and that was awhile ago, so I think StarDock should be able to figure it out if they want to put it in.

I do like this idea, and it will provide a really nice shift away from 'simplicity'. And terraforming really should exist somewhere in the tech tree.

as for the AI learning to colonize certain planets, well.. it wouldn't be hard for someone who knows how. the only thing I'd like to see adjusted on that front is where to colonize. Grabbing a planet within a controlled system should really affect relations.
Reply #11 Top
Hey Seth...you should fill the shoes nicely of the clown who wrote all the Diplomatic Dialogues and Tech Descriptions. Apply for the job.

Yes...True Terraforming of PQ0 planets should exist without question. But then again, shouldn't a PQ15 get a bump as well then? More ships, more fun.


And MadDjinn, yes... if the Torians grab Mars while I'm off galavanting for another PQ 16+ planet...then I feel they would be rather more than chastised verbally.
Reply #12 Top
Here's the way I see it. If someone can grab a planet in the middle of your empire, it's no huge worry. Even the Yor can be culture flipped, with some work. For instance, say you're a human on a planet in the middle of the Torian Confederation, which, for some reason or another, the Torians cannot live on. Trouble is, the only radio station you can pick up is "Radio Free Toria," the only delivery you can get dropped in is "Kzientha's Seafood," and the only TV station you can pick up is "TNN: Torian News Network." After a few years Earth will seem like that distant memory that randomly comes by and takes some of your money for taxes. And even though the Torians may not be able to live there, they pretty much provide everything you know and love. Soon, your decendents may start to think of themrselves as pinkish Torians with oddly shaped heads, who can survive where other Torians cannot...

OK, long winded and bizzare, but I was entertaining myself. Point is, if a planet's that deep in the heart of your empire, you should be able to culture flip it after someone takes it; they do the work, but you can keep it. Even if they're the Yor, it can be done.
Reply #13 Top
Strange that luxembourg doesn't do that, or plenty of other real world countries.

But some other faction having a world in your space isn't really the problem. It's more about having a more interesting and powerful planet system.
Reply #14 Top
Strange that luxembourg doesn't do that, or plenty of other real world countries


That's only a geographic example    - when you get down to basics, Western Europe, because of the shared history of the Roman Empire and later, of the Catholic Church/Holy Roman Empire, are pretty much the same culture. The various countries/populations may express themselves differently, but when it comes to fundimental outlooks on life, they are pretty consistant. The best recent concluded example of cultural conflict/flipping attempts would probably be the Cold War struggle between the US and the old Soviet Union. And yes, I'm sure most everyone can point to one or two ongoing struggles.
Reply #15 Top
I always thought that they should have a colonization zone that was some ratio to your ship's base range. Say it's 50%. This would simulate your ability to supply/govern/grow planets on an ongoing basis. Your ships are "top of the line" ships that should be able to travel to the maximum distance allowable with the current technology, but your citizens would have substandard transport and their distance or speed would be limited.

I think it would slow down the hopscotching you get now and, with the new system, I think will lead to greater fragmentation of empires. You would end up with 2 elements limiting your colonization --- technology for which planets are habitable and technology for colonization distance. I'm not sure how the new system will play out, but it seems like it will now be the first tech tree you will need to develope.