Terrorism of a Different Sort

Spiritual Terrorism

from JoeUser Forums
Was cleaning out some of the paperwork I've been collecting for months. Going thru and reading some of the stuff I've been putting aside until later. Well later is now. Anyhow read a rather long but interesting letter from a missionary in Kiev. His name is Bob Tolliver. His letter was on Spirtual Terrorism. He compares it to the tactics that terrorists use today. Some of the devices of a terrorist are distraction, diversion, division, secrecy, fear, weariness, surprise, time, intimidation etc. Here's an excerpt that I think the Christians out there may enjoy especially in light of the physical terrorism being displayed today.

Remember that courageous, authoritative perseverance is absolutely essential. The only way you can be taken out in this battle is if you quit. If you are wounded, be healed. If you are intimidated, take courage. If you are knocked down, get up. If you are confused, trust your Captain. Just stay at it. Remember you don't have to give in, give out, or give up. You have an alternative....dogged perseverance coming from a confident heart that tastes the spoils of victory.

Develop a pro-active rather than defensive stance. One of America's great football coaches said, "the best defense is a good offense" and that is clearly true. Rather than waiting for terrorism to come to you, go after the terrorists. This is one thing the world failed to do back in the late 1980's and early 1990's, and we are now paying the price for hesitation. A Christian should never under any circumstance put himself in a defensive mode.....it is inconsistent with and incompatible with the essence of the Great Commission. The "good news" was never a "come to us" message, but rather an "as you go" message. Such is also the case with the unseen terrorism of the spiritual realm.

Utilize preemptive tactics of offense rather than digging in for defense. Somehow we must get over the idea that following Christ can be done defensively. The defense comess from Christ Himself as our absolute source. He defends us; we do not defend either Him or ourselves. Because of that, we can and must take the initiative to engage in preemptive strikes.

Have you considered what this word actually means...preemptive? If I understand it correctly, it is rooted in the word "preeminence". That means, taking the first action from a position of preeminent superiority. That's exactly what we must do, because that's exactly who we are. So make incursions into the land of spiritual warfare. Take time for reconnaissance. Gain understanding of the enemy,, his logic, his resources, and his tactics. And then develop a strategy that instantaneously jerks the rug from under his feet and cuts off all resources at his disposal.

Be sure to spend sufficient time with your commanding officer. He's the One who is your absolute inexhaustible source. He is both your commander and your supplier. He is your authority as well as your strength.

If anything is more important than another, this may be the one thing that is virtually indispensable. If you want to know what your commanding officer thinks and knows, and if you want to learn from His years of wisdom and experience, then you have to take time talking to Him. Without Him you can do nothing. Don't go off with your weapon half cocked or your plan half backed. Be sure that, when you go out, you are fully aware, fully equipped, and fully intent on coming back in complete victory.

There you go....ready for battle? Sword sharp? Use it!! That means taking it out and using it! but we need to be "wise as serpents and harmless as doves" as we go about His business.

See you on the battlefield........
philosophy
11,035 views 25 replies
Reply #1 from JoeUser Forums Top
I think the problem with this and many such stances is the confusion between 'the enemy' and the people you are supposed to love and care about. Sure, that's a word used for Satan, but we can't really reconnoiter Satan. Instead we dissect and pull apart the lives of the people we are supposed to be working to save.

I'm not being facetious, I promise, but I really don't see that anything was said in what you quoted. Maybe there are a lot of things being alluded to that I'm not picking up on. This seems like sunday morning TV, where the preacher talks for a half hour and at the end I can't really pin down one tangible thing that you could gain from it.

I wish you'd quoted the parts where he explains what spiritual terrorism actually is. I would have liked to seen what it means to be a spiritual terrorist.
Reply #2 from JoeUser Forums Top
wish you'd quoted the parts where he explains what spiritual terrorism actually is. I would have liked to seen what it means to be a spiritual terrorist.


well I'll pull it back out and get back to you. It was very long and I probably didn't do him justice by only giving a portion.

Well, we certainly know you don't mind offending people, as long as it's done in the name of Christ...and even if it only serves to drive others away from Christ.


I guess LW it depends on how you take it. I take it that he's saying, it's ok to take the offensive, not be cowering in a defensive mode. We can have confidence in what we have. We have the tools/weapons we need and it's ok to go out there. There are way too many churches content to stay in their little white buildings and not go out into the community and do battle. The battle is not against the people, but against the darker forces. You are looking at the physical angle when this article is talking spiritual.

Doesn't matter what I say anyway LW. You always choose to take whatever I say to a contrary position.
Galactic Civilizations III
Reply #3 from JoeUser Forums Top
Romans 12: 3-21

3 For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you.

4 Just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function,

5 so in Christ we who are many form one body, and each member belongs to all the others.

6 We have different gifts, according to the grace given us. If a man's gift is prophesying, let him use it in proportion to his faith.

7 If it is serving, let him serve; if it is teaching, let him teach;

8 if it is encouraging, let him encourage; if it is contributing to the needs of others, let him give generously; if it is leadership, let him govern diligently; if it is showing mercy, let him do it cheerfully.

9 Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good.

10 Be devoted to one another in brotherly love. Honor one another above yourselves.

11 Never be lacking in zeal, but keep your spiritual fervor, serving the Lord.

12 Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer.

13 Share with God's people who are in need. Practice hospitality.

14 Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse.

15 Rejoice with those who rejoice; mourn with those who mourn.

16 Live in harmony with one another. Do not be proud, but be willing to associate with people of low position. Do not be conceited.

17 Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody.

18 If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone.

19 Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay,"says the Lord.

20 On the contrary:
"If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
if he is thirsty, give him something to drink.
In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head."

21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

(italics added by me)
Reply #4 from JoeUser Forums Top
Hey TW......thanks but why don't you just come out and say what you feel. Don't hold back or anything.

This is one of my favorite chapters. This is where the spiritual gifts are all mentioned. Which one are you? I did notice something here besides the fact that you didn't highlight this one. . Look at v8. The word is usually exhort not encourage but I'm guessing you're using NIV which is basically using the more positive approach. Check here as well.....

Link

Exhortation is the gift which enables a believer to effectively call others to obey and follow God’s truth. It may be used negatively to admonish and correct regarding sin (2 Tim. 4:2), or positively, to encourage, comfort, and strengthen struggling believers ( 2 Cor. 1:3–5; Heb. 10:24, 25) (a note from my bible)

2 Tim 4:2 says this:

Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

So you see I'm only trying to be obedient to what God has me to do. I'm not out to please man or woman. It's not on a whim I do what I do. It's not always popular I understand that. There can be a negative reaction to this. But you know what? From my experience the negative reaction is not coming from the Christians but the unbelievers. There are many people out there that are hungry for God's word. I'll never know unless I talk to them. Geeesh you could have pointed out v11 also. But I guess it depends on which way you're looking at things.

I try to never quote or give scripture to any that have a distain for it. So I guess you're ok then?





Reply #5 from JoeUser Forums Top
So you think as a boss God isn't results-minded? If, as a Christian, you offend and turn away more people than you woo, he puts that off on them, and not you? I'm trying to figure out why a perfect God would be such a terrible manager. You're describing a petty bureaucrat, more interested in procedure than actual results.

Imagine if our hospitals were more concerned with procedure than saving lives, and functioned with a 'narrow is the way' policy in terms of death count. What Christians take pride in, we'd JAIL people for in everyday life. Funny how we expect more of human pencil pushers than we do of God.
Reply #6 from JoeUser Forums Top
The "good news" was never a "come to us" message, but rather an "as you go" message. Such is also the case with the unseen terrorism of the spiritual realm.

Utilize preemptive tactics of offense rather than digging in for defense. Somehow we must get over the idea that following Christ can be done defensively. The defense comess from Christ Himself as our absolute source. He defends us; we do not defend either Him or ourselves. Because of that, we can and must take the initiative to engage in preemptive strikes.


I still think that the greatest power, and the most effective “preemptive strike”, is to love. “Love your enemies, do good to those who ill treat you” etc. It takes a lot of inner muscle to show forgiveness and compassion to people who ill-treat us, or to people who murder and rape. Yet it’s within the human condition to love in such ways. It’s a question spiritual wealth and inner muscle, which is accumulated as we advance on our spiritual quest. Other people can't take away our inner peace, as long as we know the Truth. (i.e. that we're eternal spiritual beings, infinitely secure, loved always by our Father in Heaven).

You have an alternative....dogged perseverance coming from a confident heart that tastes the spoils of victory.


I agree, and I believe that we can surrender that the battle is already won.
Reply #7 from JoeUser Forums Top
"It takes a lot of inner muscle to show forgiveness and compassion to people who ill-treat us, or to people who murder and rape."


I don't believe the murderers and rapists enter into it. People make a big deal about Jesus's compassion, but He also said that He didn't come to take anything away from the law. It wasn't necessary for Him to make it clear that we should turn the other cheek to murderers, because murderers would have been done away with according to the law then.

I think that is a big blind spot we have now. We take Jesus's statements and layer them over top of our modern sensibilities. In reality that is taking them totally out of context.

"You have an alternative....dogged perseverance coming from a confident heart that tastes the spoils of victory."


What victory? What fight? These metaphors don't ring true. God can't lose. According to most theology anything that can happen is already decided. The "work" to be done isn't a "fight", it is persuading people towards God. This antagonistic silliness doesn't make any sense. The only people you are being antagonistic to are the ones you are tasked with persuading.
Reply #8 from JoeUser Forums Top
What victory? What fight? These metaphors don't ring true. God can't lose


I agree. I think this is why Christians can afford to relax a bit more, and can cultivate a bit more inner peace. To me, walking the Christian path isn’t so much about attacking or judging, but rather about relaxing, trusting God, and handing our problems over to Him. We can “become as a little child”, resting in the arms of Jesus, whilst taking things a step at a time.

Incidentally, I just read the following in an article, which I thought was on the ball:

"God, in a sense, does not care about the outcome. Not the ultimate outcome. This is because the ultimate outcome is assured. It is this doubt about ultimate outcome that has created man's greatest enemy, which is fear. For if we doubt outcome, then we must doubt Creator, we must doubt God. And if we doubt God, we must live in fear and guilt all our life. If we doubt God's intentions - and God's ability to produce this ultimate result, then how can we ever relax? How can we ever truly find peace?”
Reply #9 from JoeUser Forums Top
Hey Andy,

nice to see you're back with us. What took you so long?

To me, walking the Christian path isn’t so much about attacking or judging, but rather about relaxing, trusting God, and handing our problems over to Him. We can “become as a little child”, resting in the arms of Jesus, whilst taking things a step at a time.


exactly, I agree we should not have guilt and fear and Jesus is our rest. No problem with that. But we are also to be watchful and diligent...on guard and ready to give an answer for the hope that lies within us.

I heard a speech one time by a former druggie. His name is Dwayne Blue. I still have the tape. He was really a bad dude by his own admission. He said he basically killed his own mother (she took her own life) and could have cared less. He didn't even go to her funeral. All that mattered to him was drugs, motorcycles and his dogs. He lived in a bus and he was a scary man.

Long story short, Christ changed his life. He still has an edge about him, but he's now preaching Jesus to people I would most likely be scared to death to talk to. He came right out and chastised a room full of preachers saying they were doing nothing but staying in their little white churches and not going out into the community to speak to people like his mother. She lived within blocks of 4-5 churches and not one preacher talked to her that he knew of. As far as he believes, his mother was in Hell. She had a bible that was never opened and never went to one of those churches. He said, if you don't go out there to people like him and his mother, the drug dealers will. They have no problem finding the people, why do the preachers?

So spiritually I agree, we need to rest in Jesus, but physically......we have lots of work to do. There are many people out there that have never even heard the gospel and sad to say I've met many who have no idea why we even celebrate Christmas.

So you think as a boss God isn't results-minded?


I'm not quite following this entry Baker. But if God was results-minded as you believe then why did Noah preach for 120 years but only his family got on the boat? Why did Jeremiah preach for 40 years or whatever and not see one convert? I've said this before....I don't worry about results. That's God's business. God is not in the numbers business but the heart business. Wasn't it you who quoted David counting his army and God displeased at that? I just worry about being obedient. I'm not really into the numbers games or these pastors that are too concerned with how many notches on their belt they've got by how many people they have brought into the church. I've seen alot of those types fall very hard. It's not about us at all. It's about God. We should not be pointing to ourselves and saying.....see how many I brought to the church? No it's God who does the converting not me or you.
Reply #10 from JoeUser Forums Top
I don't believe the murderers and rapists enter into it. People make a big deal about Jesus's compassion, but He also said that He didn't come to take anything away from the law. It wasn't necessary for Him to make it clear that we should turn the other cheek to murderers, because murderers would have been done away with according to the law then.


Well, I agree for the most part. We should forgive the murderers and rapists but that doens't mean we don't hold them accountable for their actions. The forgiveness is more for us than for them. Actually when we forgive them it's harder for them to deal with than when we don't. It's sort of like what TW quoted above (v20) with the burning coals on the head. I've actually done this and have seen great results because I was obedient in doing the forgiving even tho it was extremely hard to do so.

The turn the other cheek is so misused. Christ wasn't talking corporately but individually. He wasn't referring to the courts but to the individuals. I shake my head when I hear the President Bush as a Christian should turn the other cheek to the terrorists. That is not at all what Jesus was talking about.

Reply #11 from JoeUser Forums Top
Then what is this war or battle you are talking about? You just assume people know what this is about, and no one seems to. So, since you say the war isn't for souls, since the results don't matter, and since the war against satan is already a done deal according to revelations, I'd love to know what in the heck all this girding up of the loins is about.

I think your lack of care about results is just a cop-out, frankly; an indifference that goes against the definition of "Christian" you've been tossing around. You are supposed to care how many people get into heaven but God isnt'? If neither of you are supposed to care, what are you fighting about?

All this army of God stuff makes for pretty speeches, but I don't understand who or what you think you are fighting.
Reply #12 from JoeUser Forums Top
Baker, I tried to get the link for you, but I can't seem to open it. You can try. It's called Shoulder to Shoulder #334 "Unseen Terrorism" by Bob Tolliver

another excerpt which may answer your question as to why this is happening if the war against Satan is a done deal.

"So, what, then is the point?The fascinating thing is that, for the most part, terrorists have no real expectation of actually winning the war they wage....at least not by their own tactics and strengths, and probably not in their lifetimes. That's not the objetive of terrorism. If you ask any terrorists leader, he'll tell you that they do not expect to win outright on a field of conventional military battle.If you examine the situation, you will se that virtually every center of terrorist activity is situated in countries where there are superior manpower and weaponry to any terrorist group in the world. It, therefore, seems appropriate to assume that,while their long term goals may be to win, their immediate objectives are not. Things are much simpler for them.If terrorism does not have winning as its immediate objective, then what might its objectives be? Let me suggest these possibilities:"

He then goes on to explain each after he lists them. This is what he lists:

Distraction
Diversion
Deterrence
Weariness
Fear
Division

and the tools used

time
surprise
secrecy
intimidation
patient endurance

the outcome is

damage
death
discouragement
compromise
abandonment

and then goes on to tell how we must deal with terrorism
Reply #13 from JoeUser Forums Top
Yeah, but what really is the end result of this battle if it isn't the 'results', i.e. how many people end up where they should? It's like a used car lot where they tell the salesmen to annoy the customer because it isn't really important how many cars they sell. Since when do we fault the consumer for bad salesmen?

The only tangible damage the other side can do in this 'battle' you're talking about is preventing people from going to heaven, right? So you are supposed to fight, but then it doesn't really matter if anyone is swayed? It sounds like you are saying it doesn't matter how productive your preaching is, only how loud.

Empty rhetoric, if you ask me. You're to fight, and to win, but no one knows what they are really fighting for. I think God is most certainly results-minded, only his servants are generally more concerned with their own holiness than results.

"[14] For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
[15] And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
[16] Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
[17] And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
[18] But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
[19] After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
[20] And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
[21] His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
[22] He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
[23] His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
[24] Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
[25] And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
[26] His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
[27] Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
[28] Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
[29] For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
[30] And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
Reply #14 from JoeUser Forums Top
ok, let's look at this. The man who goes on the journey is Christ. The servants are believers given diff levels of responsibility. I believe here this parable is saying that all who are faithful to Christ will be fruitful to some degree. We also see the tragedy of wasted opportunity here. The fruitless person is unmasked and ultimately shown to be unfaithful.

this isn't about results so much as it's about obedience and faithfulness. To show you....look at v 21 & 23.

Both the man with 5 talents and the man with 2 received exactly the same reward, indicating that the reward is based on faithfulness, not results.
Reply #15 from JoeUser Forums Top
it doesn't matter how productive your preaching is, only how loud.


oh, and this?

not loud but how faithful one is. Again, how productive was Noah?

Reply #16 from JoeUser Forums Top
You are making zero sense, KFC. You twist the parable above so as not to interpret it as results-based, and you can't even avoid using the word 'fruitless'. The servants were given what they were given, and judged by what they produced.

That doesn't mean that there is some schedule of merit where some people get nicer houses in heaven or something, but you'll note the one that produced nothing got something worse than nothing. This seems to me to be obviously speaking about people who are so concerned with their own pious "witness" that the results aren't nearly as important as the image one puts forth. They'd rather rail and condemn and seem holy than to actually fellowship with the unwashed and risk their measly talents.

Noah wasn't fruitful, and ended up being another tragically flawed, drunken character among God's chosen. I would assume you couldn't say how Noah was judged for how he spent his life, could you? Since there's yet to be a judgment?

Yet another circumstance where we expect less of God than we do of mortal people. When we send people out to save lives, we hold them accountable for the ones they don't save. Yet, according the principle here, God doesn't seem to mind so long as you make a good show of it. He'd have been fired most places I've worked for that kind of management.
Reply #17 from JoeUser Forums Top
You are making zero sense, KFC. You twist the parable above so as not to interpret it as results-based, and you can't even avoid using the word 'fruitless'. The servants were given what they were given, and judged by what they produced.


Is it that I'm making zero sense? Or could it be that you have zero understanding? Am I doing the twisting or could it be you? Have you checked any commentaries...old and new.... against what I've said? Better yet, have you checked other scripture against this parable? Show me where you get your interpretation. You may want to check John 15 here. We will be judged according to our fruits. A good tree gives good fruit and a bad tree gives no fruit or bad fruit. God is the fruit inspector. Usually no fruit means we were not connected to the root.

I can see that you have your root.....and your fruit.....mixed up.

All the characters in scripture were flawed. All of them but Enoch that I'm aware of anyway. Noah was fruitful. He was faithful to what God had him do but yes he was flawed as we all are.

I can't say how Noah was judged, but I believe we will see him in the family of God. The bible speaks of rewards but that is outside of salvation not a reward for. Salvation is a gift of God and I believe Noah received that gift. "Noah found Grace in the eyes of God." Gen 6:8 Grace I'm sure you know is "unmerited favor." But you did mention chosen, and that's right.

When we send people out to save lives, we hold them accountable for the ones they don't save


Baker.......WE DON'T SAVE LIVES. GOD DOES. God is in the salvation business. We are just to spread the seed. He makes it grow. Just like the garden. I put the seeds out and God takes care of the rest. Like I said before....I think from reading you, somewhere along the line you have not picked up an understanding of the "Sovereignty of God."
Reply #18 from JoeUser Forums Top
"Baker.......WE DON'T SAVE LIVES. GOD DOES. God is in the salvation business. We are just to spread the seed."


As I say, usually a failed business either blames the employees or the manager. You just blame your boss. Oh, yes, I know, it is really the fault of the "lost", but in the end that's a little convenient, isn't it? Notice how your theology is full of blame, but never for anyone whose task it is to get the job done?

Note, I said your theology. I think the Bible tells a different story. We have a LOT of scriptures that talk about people given responsibility by God, and who do poorly, and who are harshly judged by God because of it. You wouldn't last long working at Wal-Mart with that "Hey, it ain't my job" attitude, and yet a perfect God would tolerate it?

We aren't talking about the "Sovereignty of God", we're talking about pompous Christians who believe it is not only okay to annoy and turn people away from God, it is their duty. We're talking about sad little people who believe they are involved in some great battle to make themselves feel important, but who can't tell you what they are really fighting for, since they don't seem very concerned about souls.

It amazes me how you can't see how your personal philosophy so perfectly matches that of the Pharisees. It's all about your soul. Once you've got that squared away you have no accountability and you can start sitting in the highest seats and condemning who you like. If they don't end up saved, well, it's not your fault, God does the saving; it must be his millennium off.

Nosce te ipsum. Before you go into "battle" it's just important to know who you are as it is to know who your enemy is. I honestly wonder if you know either at this point. This apocalyptic view of the world just seems to create a dramatic scene for you to live in without adding much duty.

"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap to them teachers; and they will turn their ears from hearing the truth."


(Not that any of this means a damn thing to me. The concept of a "bad manager" God, sending pompous employees with no accountability out to do exactly the opposite of what will save souls? Who state with pride that 'strait is the gate' as if they really would RATHER keep their little eternal social club as exclusive as possible?

If I had to settle on that definition of God, I'd feel as if I were worshiping Satan.)
Reply #19 from JoeUser Forums Top
As I say, usually a failed business either blames the employees or the manager.


and we're not talking about businesses here Baker, we're talking family. Which would you rather see in your own family......children that are results oriented or children that are obedient to you because they love you?

Notice how your theology is full of blame, but never for anyone whose task it is to get the job done?


who am I blaming? God gives us a job and we are to be obedient and not worry about results. I've already given you Noah. You may want to read about Jonah. He got results and he wasn't happy. You say Noah was unfruitful because after 120 yrs of preaching he had "no fruit" according to your definition. Well then how do you reconcile what God said to Noah AFTER the flood ? "And God blessed Noah and his sons and said be fruitful and multiply the earth." Gen 9:1. God doesn't bless disobedience....but wait......Noah had no results. According to you......he should be severely punished. No Baker, your theology doesn't jive with scripture......not at all.

You just don't understand the concept and think everything should be results based when God is doing a work in each individual's heart. It's not about notches on one's belt but about a heart that is serving God, even when it makes no sense sometimes. It made no sense to Jonah.

We have a LOT of scriptures that talk about people given responsibility by God, and who do poorly, and who are harshly judged by God because of it. You wouldn't last long working at Wal-Mart with that "Hey, it ain't my job" attitude, and yet a perfect God would tolerate it?


well then give them to me. I've backed up pretty much all I've said with scripture.. God does not harshly judge someone anywhere in scripture for not coming up with results. Nowhere. He does deal with them in their disobedience.

We aren't talking about the "Sovereignty of God",


oh yes we are....this is all about the Sovereignty of God....and IMO, I think you have a problem with it.

It amazes me how you can't see how your personal philosophy so perfectly matches that of the Pharisees


and it amazes me to see when I challenge you a bit, you get angry and resort to name calling. I have yet to be as harsh on you as you are to me, yet you call me a Pharisee? You may want to read up on the Pharisees. They were harsh, condemning and angry most of the time.

BTW....good verse you used above. I am not one that likes to tickle ears obviously, and that's the problem here. I refuse to do it. So you go ahead and find someone that will tickle yours, cuz I'm not in that business.

Reply #20 from JoeUser Forums Top
"It's not about notches on one's belt but about a heart that is serving God, even when it makes no sense sometimes. It made no sense to Jonah. "


No, it's about people's souls burning in hell for all eternity, according to your own theology. No biggie, though. You get done what you get done, no reason to worry about results...

"well then give them to me. I've backed up pretty much all I've said with scripture.. God does not harshly judge someone anywhere in scripture for not coming up with results. Nowhere. He does deal with them in their disobedience."


So you can just twist them the way you twist the parable of the talents? Why bother? It doesn't say the lord in that parable told them to go out and invest. No doubt the servant thought he was covering his ass by making sure he didn't lose it. Therefore the point isn't obedience, it is the foolishness of covering your own ass when you are entrusted with someone else's wellbeing.

But, again, you'll just say he wasn't obedient with a glassy look in your eyes, and I'll realize that you are going to keep saying that like a robot whether I post 1 or 1,000 scriptures. What's the point?

"oh yes we are....this is all about the Sovereignty of God....and IMO, I think you have a problem with it. "


It makes you feel better to think that. Because you've set yourself up a nasty, bullyish, bronze-age God who treats humans like toys, instead of the Father that Jesus describes, who knows the fall of every sparrow. Of course you'll say I just can't handle his "tough love" or the fact that he's in charge, when in reality I can't handle the fact that you've deified every bad human characteristic we, as imperfect mortals, have had the morality to discard over the last 4,000 years.

"BTW....good verse you used above. I am not one that likes to tickle ears obviously, and that's the problem here. I refuse to do it. So you go ahead and find someone that will tickle yours, cuz I'm not in that business. "


No, but you'll buy yourself whatever concordance interprets verses to mean exactly what you need them to, and embrace any 'teacher' that says what you need them to say to continue your one-sided 'battle' against no one in particular...

I'm getting harsh, so it is time to quit. I'll just add that according to you there's no sweat if you don't sway a single soul, and the big grand war is already decided regardless, so I guess all this spiritual warfare is just a way to kill time until your god comes to take you home. Sorry if I have a hard time dealing with slash-and-burn Christianity.
Reply #21 from JoeUser Forums Top
God gives us a job and we are to be obedient and not worry about results.


You...think everything should be results based when God is doing a work in each individual's heart.


What "work in each individual's heart" does God occupy himself with? Aren't humans creatures created with free will, having the freedom to choose God or not? If so, why would he go about changing the hearts of the people he desires unconditional love from? The two don't coincide; when God interferes, the love is no longer unconditional. Christians are charged with spreading his word and bringing believers to Christ. If humans spread the seed, shouldn't they water and feed it too? Why would God? He's not looking to create followers, he's looking for people to find him without his intervention. If a Christian is turning people from God, how can they be serving him? Saying it's just about the work, not the results, seems like a cop-out.

Where does this "spread my word and forget about the rest" mentality come from?
Reply #22 from JoeUser Forums Top
Hey Andy,

nice to see you're back with us. What took you so long?


Hi KFC, how are you? I’ve only been away for a bit really, but I missed you guys and wanted to say hello again.

So spiritually I agree, we need to rest in Jesus, but physically......we have lots of work to do.


Yes, I agree with that. I think that finding spiritual resources should come before the physical actions, however, rather than the other way round, otherwise the physical actions and behaviour might lack wisdom and compassion, and might not be coming from the heart.

Regarding bringing people to Christ, which I think is your primary aim, attitudes of “attack”, “pre-emptive strikes” and “enemy” etc. can put a lot of people’s backs up, and could turn more people away.

In my opinion, authentic power and real strength lie in things like forgiveness, goodwill and humility, and the Kingdom of God overflows with such wealth. As St. Paul says, “For the Kingdom is not a matter of words, but of power. Which do you prefer? Shall I come to you with a whip, or in a spirit of love and gentleness?” – 1 Corinthians 4.20.
Reply #23 from JoeUser Forums Top
Terrorism of a Different Sort


I think that terrorists' attitude about "attack", "strike", and "getting one up on another" etc. is rooted more in insecurity and weakness, a fear that their foundation can be threatened, or that they can lose position or power. These are the attitudes of the world. The Kingdom of God, however, is infinitely secure, full of eternal wealth, and will last forever, and can’t possibly be threatened. Hence no need for attack, strike, defence or the like. Just inner peace, joy and truth - attributes of Heaven, which can be experienced "on earth as it is in Heaven"
Reply #24 from JoeUser Forums Top
Aren't humans creatures created with free will, having the freedom to choose God or not?


I don't see this in scripture....although I will agree it's a debate among Christians. If you do a study on Romans you will see quite clearly God is the one doing the choosing, not us. In fact, our Pastor is preaching Romans right now and he ran into a few who have never really thought about it and at least one person who got very angry with the election (not freewill) principle. When asked how he would teach on this scripture the man in question said, "I wouldn't. I would skip over it." That's not acceptable.

Where does this "spread my word and forget about the rest" mentality come from?


I never said, forget about the rest. I said we are not to be concerned about results. Sure we need to preach Christ and pray for salvation for others but we need to realize and stop beating ourselves up when somebody doesn't "get it." That's a bit different than you're thinking. We are to disciple and help shepherd those who are searching for God. We are to be helpers in all sorts of ways but we have no control on who gets "saved" or not. God uses us to reach others...yes. But it's the HS's job to indwell believers, not us. In the meantime we don't know who God is trying to reach and who he is not, so we preach and teach all we feel the HS is leading us to.

I love to teach. I believe it's a gift God has given me. I have a group that I started with over 5 years ago. I meet every week with them. When I first started, none of them were regularly attending church, some not at all. Today, all but one are attending. I believe it's the power of God's word that has brought them to church, but God used me to reach them. He opened the door for me to even be there. It wasn't me but the HS urging in their hearts and minds.

If a Christian is turning people from God, how can they be serving him?


I don't believe a Christian would want to do this. Most people turn away because they don't want to hear what the Christian has to say. Many want their ears tickled. They want to hear what they want to hear and it it contradicts or gets in their way, they shut it off. Felix is a good example in the book of Acts. He was so convicted, he trembled yet he said to Paul, "go away and if the time is right, I'll send for you." He came to the threshold but never crossed over. Acts 24.

The only way a Christian is going to reach a person with the gospel is if the heart of that person is prepared by God first. God is the heart surgeon, not the Christian. Noah is a good example. He preached for 120 years but they all turned away from his preaching. Same with Jeremiah. How about Isaiah? God told him to preach even tho none would listen to him. Why did God instruct him to do so then? Why no results? Why bother?

Christ said it would be like the days of Noah, when he came back. Many again will not listen to those preaching Christ. It doesn't matter if one is preaching the love of Christ or the judgement of Christ.

think that terrorists' attitude about "attack", "strike", and "getting one up on another" etc. is rooted more in insecurity and weakness, a fear that their foundation can be threatened, or that they can lose position or power


Satan's goal is to steal loyalties from God to Him. Didn't He do that right in the beginning with Eve? The battle now is our will against God's will. God is doing a work in us to be more like Him, to be in the line of His will, not fight against it. I heard a great sermon today on Satanic qualities. These are characteristics that Satan has and uses in battle.

1. Conceit-Satan gets them to focus not on God but themselves-
2. Discontentment.....lure us out of God's will
3. Self Deception- this is seen in conceit and discontentment. Grass is always greener on the other side.
4. Jealousy-over God's authority. Satan wanted what God had. He wanted his own angels, his own people and his own kingdom. He's working towards that but again, he is self deceived. To do so means to try and eliminate the other person who has it. The hatred is real. Cain is a good example here....and can't you see this also with the land of Israel right now?
5.Willfulness-I want what I want when I want it. Get out of my way. Children come fully programmed at birth with this. We are to break or tame the strong will of our children but not the spirit. Contrast our will to what God wants.
6. Arrogance-Satan thought he could usurp God Himself and has been trying ever since...Isaiah 14 comes to mind.
7. Rebellion-this is the heart to it all. Our sin nature is to rebell against God. Satan is behind this from the get go. In scripture it says rebellion is like witchcraft.


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Reply #25 from JoeUser Forums Top
Satan's goal is to steal loyalties from God to Him. Didn't He do that right in the beginning with Eve? The battle now is our will against God's will. God is doing a work in us to be more like Him, to be in the line of His will, not fight against it


I don't think Christians should adopt the same attitudes as the terrorists - or in this case the Dark Side, though. Preemptive attacks and strikes etc. are more terrorist attitudes, or at least attitudes held by people who believe they have something that can be threatened or taken away. Hence driven by insecurity and fear. Should this apply to Christians? Surely not. Also, God has the final say in who becomes Christian anyway. I believe that we can afford to relax, surrender it over to God, and trust that everything is in good hands.

If we feel impelled to preach the gospel, or spread a message, then all is well, especially if it’s our passion. But I think that it will serve us, and other people, if the message can be spread in a spirit of humility, goodwill, understanding and love, as opposed to the aggressive ‘attack’ mode adopted by some.