Sword of the Stars

Tried the demo and I will pass on this one. Its stripped down the the point of not even being enjoyable. I give them credit for trying to keep it fast paced for online play but WOW... even after a few times in the demo I was bored silly.

I thought that at first but after getting into it for awhile, over 80 turns, I am starting to see that it may be worth it. I would love to get some feed back from more people out there and see what the general feeling is.

this game rocks in multiplayer mode
its fantastic

I found it extremely boring. Everything about it seems to involve unnecessary steps with no chance for avoiding them.

For example when you complete research a box doesn't come up asking you to pick something new; you have to hear the audio announcement that research is done or spot it in the newsbar and then open up the research window.

Ship combat is slow and hard to control. There's no retreat button on the interface and it's not particularly clear what the orders do because even the 'approach and fire on enemies" button has no noticeable effect. Move orders are slow to be enacted and, due to the small size of the projectile graphics, it's hard to tell when attack orders are being carried out. If one of your fleets is destroyed in orbit you have to wait the remaining time (default is 4 minutes for a full space battle) while the attacking fleet bombards your planet...slowly.

The starmap has no panning feature, so you have to rotate the entire map to see where things are.

The shipbuilding portion is an interesting approach and if I works like I think it does (the strongest weaponry is automatically placed) it's a good idea. Basically the ship is split into thirds. The front houses the command structure. Bits from the demo that fit here range from a poorly armoured sensory array to the standard one to one designed for attack ships. The middle section is the 'meat' of the ship and it's where you choose the ship's role - combat, communications, tanker, colony, missile boat, long-ranged etc. Each of these middle sections has different weapon mounts and, with research, different options for improvements. The third section is the engines which are fairly unremarkable.

That setup makes it easy to put together the right ship for your task. For those who are familiar with other space-based games it's a little easier than the Master of Orion games but not as featured as Galactic Civs.

The way different races travel through space differently (humans use star lanes, the hivers have slow drives but drag gates which allow instant transport and the rest have the standard drives of other games) is innovative but not something you could really see in the demo due to the race limitations.

Overall it's not a game I would buy but if you like slow-paced finicky space games then it'll probably appeal.

wait did you say multiplayer?
my gf will want to try this.
we like to play games together and galciv is the only one we can't do that with.
the demo includes multi?

Well i personaly think your assessment is a little off, cactoblasta. In the demo you only have access to about the first third of the tech tree. not nearly enough of the game to make a good up or down decision. Also things further down the tech tree eliminate or ease most of the things you find wrong. For instance, the reason the battles seem slow is because you only have access to the smallest ship type. Larger ship types enable the bigger weapons and open up more in the way of tactics. I advise everyone to wait until the game comes out then read several reviews. to write the game off now is very narrow minded.

Well i personaly think your assessment is a little off, cactoblasta. In the demo you only have access to about the first third of the tech tree. not nearly enough of the game to make a good up or down decision. Also things further down the tech tree eliminate or ease most of the things you find wrong. For instance, the reason the battles seem slow is because you only have access to the smallest ship type.

No, the reason I dislike the space battles is that the controls are so slow to respond and the ships are so slow to move. I can appreciate that space is a big place and that my tech was primitive but honestly I'd like to see a timer speed control if you have to have fights with the lowliest and most tortoise-esque of fleets.

The reason I dislike the reseach is that you have to micromanage it - if you don't pick up that you've successfully reseached something straight away you'll fall behind technologically. Most other games have a window that pops up when research is done so that you're not sitting there waiting til you pick up the announcement. It's a decade-old innovation that SOS should have included.

We all know that the point of a demo is to get people interested in buying a game. This demo did not interest me and I'm not going to buy the game. It's just not my style.

For example when you complete research a box doesn't come up asking you to pick something new; you have to hear the audio announcement that research is done or spot it in the newsbar and then open up the research window.

There are four cues that research is finished:

1) An verbal announcement(and with that voice I don't know how you miss it!)
2) The research icon disappears
3) The news events listing/ticker shows it
3) There's no research allocation in your budget pie at the top of the page

How much spoonfeeding do you need?

There are four cues that research is finished

1. It's inadequate. For many turns nothing happens. When there's nothing else to do why not rig the game so a player can just click end turn as soon as the timer counts down rather than waiting around to hear announcements?
2. Do you mean the icon next to the build spaceship button or some other icon? It wasn't mentioned in the ingame tutorial so far as I am aware and it's not particularly obvious if it is that button. A starburst effect (like in Rise of Legends) would make that more obvious.
3. The news event ticker takes a while to go through various inconsequential events like planet discoveries and ship construction. Must I wait a minute or double click it to bring up a click-through summary every turn?
4. So I'm suppose to check that as well every turn to make sure I'm not spending on research?

Why is a pop-up such an impossible demand? Every game of this sort since Master of Orion 1 has had the feature. And to be honest even the slightest clunk in an interface is enough to turn me off a game. I have no intention of being caught paying retail for another MOO3. If it's not easy to use I'm not buying it.

How much spoonfeeding do you need?

Ah, now I see your perspective. I'll outline mine. Basically I consider the point of a game is to provide enjoyment. I'm not going to enjoy a game where I have to pay constant vigilance in order to get anywhere. I don't consider that fun. Constant vigilance is for work, not play. So basically an arcane or unhelpful interface is a permanent turn-off. I want to be offered a choice when something is completed. I don't want to miss out on something just because I haven't checked what every planet in a 20-planet empire is doing. I don't want to waste research because I have missed the indicators, no matter how obvious they are. With the demo's rather limited tech-tree that's less of an issue, but I'd hate having to check your four indicators every turn for advances when the game might stretch out over 200 turns or more. That's a lot of busywork that in a game like Civ1/2/3/4, Moo1/2, Galciv1/2 and elsewhere I don't have to bother with.

For me the trade-off - a fairly nifty ship creation system and some unusual transport arrangements in the full version - isn't worth the annoyance of the interface, and I think I made that obvious in my previous comments.

Forums I hang on seem to have an unusually vocal minority bigging up this game. Bluesnew had a regular guy-off-the-street turn up and defend the SOTS demo like a momma bear defends her cubs, on his first post. Draw your own conclusions.

I tried the demo and thought it was horrible. I do not envy anyone releasing a 4X game in the wake of Gal Civ 2 (I'm looking at you Aaron Hall!) but SOTS doesn't even come close.

I have to agree with Cactoblaster and Fright I think the interface is not very intuitive or user friendly, it needs a pan-map function, at least an extra dozen shortcuts, a speed up button on the real time battles (of which i felt I really wasnt in control), and was it just me or is it impossible for a tanker to refuel a craft in mid-flight path? it was generally a very frustrating experience which is a shame because I was really looking forward to it.
oh yeah, 4 races.. whats that all about!? why just 4?
Perhaps im ripping into it far too soon given as ive only tried a limited demo but demo's are susposed to 'wow the crowd' and it simply hasnt done it for me.

AGoetz said friendly fire is a problem during real-time combat.

Seems like the perfect place for the RTS crowd.

"and was it just me or is it impossible for a tanker to refuel a craft in mid-flight path?" -- From what I heard on the forums, this is only a problem for the human empire. It still doesn't make any sense to me though, I don't understand why humans ship crews would be unable to figure out how to refuel and keep moving.

Sword of the Stars seems to be developed with the concept that micromanagement is good for gameplay, which I wholeheartedly disagree with. If there is only one correct choice in a given situation (IE, a fleet with a tanker needs to stop and refuel several times in order to make a trip, or if research has finished and my scientists sit idle), then I find it outright tedious. Tedium is not fun, I should be making IMPORTANT decisions in a strategy game. How the hell would the advisors of some kind of interstellar emperor or commander just let a fleet sit idle for lack of a single mouseclick to refuel it? Why would they waste their research capacity and let their whole empire fall behind just because he missed the ticker and an audio 'eureka' six turns ago?

I don't doubt that the creators of SotS made the game that they want to play, that is the reason they stick to such ridiculous "features" instead of catering to the customer. I think they have pretty poor taste, and for people with jobs they sure do like to waste their time with pointless busywork while playing games.. SotS may be for them, but it isn't for me. The argument could be made that it's 'good' for us to be forced to be mindful and careful, but no matter how hard we try we can just be lost in the details or the big picture. It becomes exhausting to accomplish even a simple task ("Hey go colonize that world our scouts just found.") when we're required to handle every little detail.

There are ways to add complexity and depth without being pointlessly tedious. For instance, one 'inconvenient' feature introduced in Master of Orion 1 or 2 (I forget which) was that ships in transit could not be given new orders unless they were within 'hyperwave broadcast' range. This feature may have been inconvenient but it did not waste your time, instead what it introduced was having to be more careful about where you sent your fleets.

Actually in SotS research isnt as important as it is in other strategy games. You see in SotS your dealing more with the finances of the empire, so it might be a good idea to let your researchers idle for a time. Let me clear it up a bit. Every turn your empire generates money. Out of that money you pay for resaerch, improve your worlds, buy ships, ya know that kinda thing. I think what the devs where aiming for was a tad more realistic approach to empire management. In some parts of the game those nifty new engines might not be as essential to the empire as that new war fleet. The construction of ships in SotS is alot like the purchase of ships in GC2. In SotS your not going to have planets that constantly churn out warships. If you do that your empire is gonna be in seriouse finacial trouble. Likewise a particular path of research might be too expensive to pursue at a particular time. In some cases you may need to save up your money to buy your war fleet. The fastest way to get to your monetary goal may be to halt your resaerch alltogether.

You see the point Im trying to get across is that resaerch in SotS is not neccesarily supposed to be an ongoing thing, therefore the game doesnt force you to continue research. Now as for panning Im still kinda confused about that.

And to the guy who wonders why there are only four playable races in SotS. In GC2 the only real difference between the races are a few numerical bonuses in a few areas and in some cases asthetics. With that system it isnt that difficult to have nine races, its not even extremely difficult to have thiryt races. But in the case of SotS the races are nearly totaly unique. Each race has its own form of FTL travel. In the demo you only get to see the Human and Tarka propulsion systems. The humans travel down star lanes that dont neccesarily do to the next star, whiel the Tarka have a traditional warp drive. In the full game you will have acces to the Liir. Thier Propulsion system is reactionless. Its kinda hard to explain but they dont apply force to ove through space they teleport very rapidly over very small distances. In the game they move in a similar way to the Tarka. the main difference is that while near gravity wells they go kinda slow, but the deeper they get into space the faster they go. the other race, the Hivers, dont posses FTL travel at all. They send thier ships to other systems at STL speeds. Once they get to that system, if they have brought along a gateship they can deploy a star gate which allows for near instantaneous travel between the stars.
Another way the races are different is the basic design of thier ships. not only do they look different they also have different charecteristics. For example the Tarka tend to have most of thier weapon mounts near the front of thier ships leaving the engine sections lightly defended. On the other hand since the Hivers dont have FTL systems on thier ships thier engines tend to have much more weaponry. Also since 70% of the games tech tree is randomized some races are more likely to have certain techs than others. For example the Tarka favor mass driver weapons much more than beams. so they are more likely to have the cool adavnced mass driver techs tha the Liir who are the opposite and tend to like thier beam weapons much more.

In closing i think it is a great relief that the developers of SotS are going at the game at a different angle. I find much of the game to be very interesting and innovative. That combined with its multiplayer component will give it a long stay on my hard drive. Im sorry for the long post but I think we should at least try to look at a game from the Devs perspective before we say such incredibly rude things about it. I mean if I had used the same tactic for rating a game as some of you GC2 would have never even been considered and look at it now a great game with tons of variety. None of that could have been done without an understanding audience.

From what I heard on the forums, this is only a problem for the human empire. It still doesn't make any sense to me though, I don't understand why humans ship crews would be unable to figure out how to refuel and keep moving.

They can refuel and they can keep moving - just at sublight speed. Node lines run between planets. If you run out of fuel, you drop out of the node line. And you can't jump back in because the line begin and end at planets.

So for humans, you have to make sure you:

1) Have adequate range
2) Adequate fuel

FYI, you can set it so that ships automatically refuel at planets when they arrive.

However, that leads to problems - what if you didn't want a particular ship refueled by a particular tanker - maybe you wanted the defense fleet refueled while holding the colony ship. Or vice versa. So no matter what the developers chose as the default, someone would complain (see it's not as easy as you think when making a game, is it? ). So they set the default as the one giving you the most control. But you can choose to make it automatic if you want to. You have a choice - just make sure you understand the consequences of your choice.

And to be honest even the slightest clunk in an interface is enough to turn me off a game. I have no intention of being caught paying retail for another MOO3.

Sorry, but I don't find that believeable. I love GalCiv2, but there are any number of clunky issues with its interface. Fleet management, moving ships into and out of fleets was extremely clunky - I found that very irritating. Others have posted any number of simplifications that should be in the interface - some of which have been addressed in patches, some not. But if you really believed what you stated, you wouldn't be playing GalCiv2.

I find what counts is whether I enjoy a game from an overall perspective. No interface is perfect and I'm usually able and willing to work through any quirks. SOTS had its quirks, but any honest appraisal of GalCiv2 would agree that it has its own also. And SOTS is no MOO3 by a long shot - there is a game in SOTS - there isn't much of one in MOO3.

As for the research notification, I don't know why they didn't use a pop up. But they do give you four cues - more than adequate for most - and it's just a matter of getting used to it - it's really not all that hard. And I have no problem - and I think any strategy gamer worth his salt has an idea when his research will be done and will be looking for it, anticipating it

Sorry, but I don't find that believeable. I love GalCiv2, but there are any number of clunky issues with its interface.

I got Galciv 2 for free (I was an original drengin.net subscriber). Getting a game for free makes me more likely to overlook problems I won't overlook when I'm paying AUS$80. I found the game nigh-on unplayable in its original v1.0 form, but over time it's gotten better and better and the bugs have slowly been ironed out.

I don't play it much any more though, so you've got a point there. Galciv 2 is an okay game, but it never rocked my world. I wouldn't have bought it based on that first version and I certainly wouldn't have bought it based on the demo. The same applies for any other game, including SOTS. That's why I said in my initial review that those who like finicky games might get some enjoyment out of it.

But they do give you four cues - more than adequate for most - and it's just a matter of getting used to it - it's really not all that hard.

I'm not willing to go through hour upon hour of hard slog just to get to the fun you can find 3 hours in when I can buy one of the rare games that will be immediately satisfying. There's usually a few released every year, so it's not like I have to tolerate 'good-enough'. It's an attention-span problems I guess.

It sounds like the problem is all yours Cactoblasta. GC2 1.0 had its quirks but was far from unplayable. And if you have such a low attention span then get into another genre Im shure the FPS guys would love to hear you complain about it being so hard to aim the sniper rifle from point blank range. Yea why not just have the gun's bullets track, that would let you be able to just press buttons and win. no real play involved.

And SOTS is no MOO3 by a long shot - there is a game in SOTS - there isn't much of one in MOO3.

MOO3 is the best game of all time (along with GC and SE IV)  ...if you have an IQ of 120 at least, that is...  

MOO3 is the best game of all time

Please tell me you were being sarcastic, and that I just wasn't able to detect that....  

Please tell me you were being sarcastic, and that I just wasn't able to detect that....

Hi Martok

Of course it's birth of the federation which is the best game of all time...

Now, i seriously enjoy MOO3 a lot but it's clearly only for a few...if you take the original release, it was indeed poor but the patch and the mods have made the game playable and challenging.

I have purchased this game and YES it is untraditional, but so far I like it! I will try multiplayer after I become much much better at it Cactoblasta is dead on with the amount of unecessary BS u have to click, it does get boring. But I hope they will patch this. Also the notification about research not being done can lead you to miss some tech turns, but this is a game where you are not supposed to research every turn. If you get more into the game you see you have to skip some turns to build up your savings.

Anyway the game does need some tweeks but the combat is solid. It involves planning, you have to make very well balanced fleets for their tasks, not jsut spam one kind of ship. That is very refreshing Many of my fleets have failed because of bad make up and improper order in which my ships entered the battle :/

So I look forward to many mroe hours hitting that turn button

After playing the game for a couple of weeks I have mixed views. I like the game much better than Galciv II, but it is a bit light on colony management. The emphasis is on fleet/ship design and management. It has a "spacier" feel than BCII, which plays a lot like a land game. SWOTS lacks some things but it has some good stuff. It's fun, mostly. However, its information system is AWEFUL. They have a silly ticker for current events. The alternative is a listing that is fluffy with graphics, not concise at all. There are no concise reports on planets or fleets. The best you can do is get a screen that shows the details of only 5 planets at a time, each in its own big box. The same thing with fleets. Be prepared to do a LOT of clicking and scrolling to find out what is going on.

All in all, it is a very, very enjoyable game married to one of the WORST information systems I have seen in a long time.

I just purchased this game and I have to say that it looks pretty good. I like the concept and they just released a patch that improved the game somewhat. I still tend to prefer the depth of GalCiv, because I am the kind of guy who likes manageing space colonies and building ships out of 6 or 7 hull designs. Nevertheless, while your ship designs in SotS are more limited both in both design and aesthetic value, what you can do with the ships is much more interesting. The RTS elements are imperfect, but I respect the designers objective of being "Total War" in space rather than Civ in space. Occaissionaly it does seem as if they made amatuerish decisions in the game design overall. Even their web site seems hard to navigate. Still this is a fun game chaseing a novel concept into space.