Newbie thoughts on Galciv (long)

I'll make it clear at the start that I actually really enjoy this game, and I admire what the stardock team are doing to support it. That said, I also want to provide feedback on what really needs to be fixed. I've looked around and so hopefully I'm not repeating the same points as everyone else.

My biggest annoyance is planetary invasions- why do you have to wipe out every last citizen? The whole influence thing shows that the populace can be flipped to another allegiance, nobody is that loyal. If around half the population fought back (dependednt on approval) but with greater advantage modifiers, this would fix the bizarre situation where ordinary civilians don't consider surrender. The remaining half would actually get conquered and become part of the invading civ. To balance this, make the planet nonproductive for a few weeks after conquest, in order to prevent invading civs gaining too much momentum. Refer to it as 'cultural readjustment' or something.

The AI has a few quirks that feel like bugs- tech trading should not mean that all civs use the same weapons. Although a smart AI can see that they will get better weapons that way, there is no advantage in having top level energy weapons if everyone else does too. Especially considering how slowly ships are designed, it's all too easy to counter AI fleets, without adjusting my own designs.

AI never seems to trade planets either, regardless of what you offer. I realise the abuses possible, but it would be nice to be able to swap once in a while.

AI should build less starbases (they get quite ridiculous sometimes), but make the ones they do have much better. Rather than 5 econ starbases without modules, make one good one. It's better for the AI, the game performance, ship movement etc.

On that note, mining starbases are too powerful, especially given that their position is more or less random. An option to turn off or weaken resources would be cool.

Someone mentioned a diminishing returns effect when multiple improvements of the same type are built on a planet. E.G second NLC gives 80% of the bonus of the first, the third one gives 70% etc. This makes focussed planets less effective, helping the AI who don't build like that. It also means that economic/industrial dominance is harder to reach.

If the human player becomes dominant, weaker AI should look for someone to side with. Stronger AI might band together. This should help avoid the 'midgame effect' when the player becomes dominant and everything ceases to be a challenge. Being confronted by a coalition of enemies would help. They shouldn't resort to force alone either- influence, trade sanctions, all good weapons.

"The galaxy is not a tidy place". Why is it so empty then? Where are the permanent wormholes (perhaps with a module that lets ships negotiate them), asteroid fields that make missiles harder to use in, anomalous energy fields to disrupt energy weaps and thick gas clouds that slow mass drivers and make them less damaging. I'm just kicking ideas about here, but I think that different environments could make exploration and combined fleet tactics more interesting

UP is awful. Look to alpha centauri for a good system- you could bribe people or be bribed in order to fudge the result. As it is... for example, the motion comes up to limit evil races trade routes (I am good). I have no idea what the other races will vote for, nor can I affect them, so there is no tactical voting, no compromise. Letting the player vote last, and therefore seeing everyone elses vote so you could vote more effectively, would help. I realise that the much hyped AI is not supposed to distinguish between player and other AIs, but the game is suffering for it in this case.

More motions, let us choose which to vote on, maybe even more than one motion per year. The motions specifically penalising one player are stupid. A better motion would be giving all civs 500 credits say. Tactical voting comes into play based on whether you need the money as much as everyone else does.

Keep the ethical dilemmas coming, even after the player chooses an alignment. Here's the kicker though- if they stray from their alignment too far, they lose some of the bonuses they gained. A slight rebalancing of the alignments would then be necessary, sort out those NLCs (I reccomend placing them later in the tech tree, after the best conventional research facility).

Combat viewer- why do the ships bob and twitch like that? I'd rather see small ships zooming about and large ships trudging straight forward.

Negotiations- if actual conversation with aliens is not on the cards, then make 'surrender, attack...' clearer (I hesitate to use them since I'm not sure who is attacking who).

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I think that's all for now. Thanks very much for creating this game.
5,896 views 14 replies
Reply #1 Top
Planetary invasions:

I can understand why they wipe out everyone. It's not because you trash the standing army that you hold the planet. A substantial part of the population might go into a resistance, making planetary invasions a very tedious undertaking. Starting over with a clean slate (except for those peeps you bribed into joining you) by slaying everyone is an option, especially since the troops you used are turned into taxpayers again. Essentially, if they succeed, they get what they conquered. Quite an incentive if you ask me.

The slower design of ships is remoured to have been addressed in the 1.2 version of the game. The reason it didn't design ships that fast was to save computing power, I believe. I don't think having the same weapon preference actually degrades the use of that weapon. It only makes it more tempting for others to research the correct defensive techs.

Trading planets requires the AI to value their worth which is notoriously difficult to do. After all, a computer can't think in a context like we, humans, do. Basically, this is what makes creating a good AI so hard: get it to understand what's a good idea and what's a bad one. The more open the game is in term of options the harder it gets.
Having said that, it *is* possible to get planets from the AI but only when you've cornered him militarily. It will give up land in exchange for its life. So, if you can make it clear that he'll only live if he gets on your good side, he'll swallow his pride and give you what you want. It isn't much of a trade, but hey, you get what you ask, right?

The rules for placing starbases has changed over the course of the patches and I don't know if the AI was adjusted to compensate for that. Earlier rules ensured no starbase could be built within X spaces of another starbase. In that respect, his spamming was a form of protection. Perhaps coding a re-evaluation every time the AI builds a starbase would prevent him from putting starbases so closeby. If an area is 'served' it wouldn't build more starbases there but would focus on expanding them.

The power of mining starbases depends to a great extent on your own tech level. Their effect can be telling but I haven't encountered a situation where there effects became overpowering. Surgical strikes become important, however. In the later game, starbases become fragile so I believe it balances out.

The reduced efficiency sounds nice at face value but it has the tendency to create a very murky mechanic for the players if the expenses stay the same. As it is now, more in translated into research/manufacturing points. If the exchange rate changes depending on the number of facilities, it gets difficult to keep track of. If both the costs go down as well as the points generated, it's fine by me. Besides, the game mechanics don't prohibit the forming of balanced planets (they don't encourage it too much either). A research center doesn't get better if there's another one already present. It only starts to matter when there are proportional bonusses present such as capitals.

As the patches come out, the AI is becoming more and more aware of 'macro-politics'. A recent addition was the aspect of fear. If you go about conquering other empires, the others might just see themselves next on the plate and gang up on you. I haven't experienced that yet but then again, I'm not really agressive.

Aside the galaxy not being tidy, it is also huge. Those terrain features you speak of are very, very rare. Granted, they could add some depth to the game but you have to keep in mind the AI again. Will it be able to handle terrain? Remember, the objective of Stardock is to have the AI play a challenging but fair game. Adding options and situations only makes it that much harder. I would like some terrain, though.

The UP could indeed be done in another way. Now, measures can easily be negated just because those in favour didn't guess the correct answer (like how many modules are we going to allow). Being able to work in two rounds would work wonders. First you get to see who votes what and then you get to make deals. There are several suggestions floating on the forum to influence the measure being voted on, either by electing a chairman or by consensus.

I like those ethical dilemmas too. I love that undead army one that seems to stack on each other. It feels as if you're evolving while playing the game. There are others like that but it has been a very long time since I've encountered those. The one thing I hold against those dilemma's is that it can't really deal with the condition that you'll do anything to win except hurt your own people. If you keep that condition you'll end up good, neutral or evil depending on the dilemmas at hand.

NLCs are considered to be overpowered by many out there. The order of alignments in terms of power is Neutral, Evil, Good (or so most seem to agree on). I have no opinion on that.

The combat viewer is one of my major eye-candy gripes. Large ships bob up and down as if headbanging on the latest Felix Da Housecat-tune and many ships bump into each other once they get to medium size. And don't get me started on the visuals of those weapons. The beams are just fine and the missiles are okay, though a bit slow, but those mass drivers!

When I think mass driver, I think lots of noise, shrapnel/slugs, impacts and tracers. Imagine my surprise when my cool battleship (Huge hull) headbanged his way over to the enemy opening up all guns and releasing...a score of green blobs that happily (and excruciatingly slowly) edged their way to the enemy, who proceeded to exploded well before any of the fudge arrived.
Reply #2 Top
"The galaxy is not a tidy place". Why is it so empty then?
Space is BIG. Very big. Considering most of the action in GC2 takes place outside of a solar system, you'd be hard pressed to find asteroid fields, energy fields et al. You pick a direction to blast off from earth, and you're highly unlikely to ever go through anything like that, you're most likely to simply fly through 'empty' space.
Reply #3 Top
You can use money to buy influence from people...
Reply #4 Top
I agree with your comment about the UP this is another area that the game could use more depth. I think the type of things you end up voting for are silly and at random, pointless. It would be much more interesting if you could choose or at least "influence" based on your influence points, via allies, which topic to choose from.

A brilliant idea, which would encourage the player to do more wheeling and dealing anyway goes like this... Have a human player go around asking the other AI races to either vote for or against an upcoming motion, perhaps there are four choices on what to place at the top of the agenda and only one gets tackled per year right... So your choices could be or vote for A.B.C.or D. and then either vote for or against them. That way if you never want to see "limit minimum freighter speed to 1 or 2 or 3 or 4 or 5?" or you want to see the max number of starbases in a sector raised to 20 or something. (Just making stuff up here) then you can buy off the other races to try to make it happen. Things could change as time goes on and there'd be no guarantee that the other races would vote your way, but only and increased chance if you bothered... if you have good relations it could cost less either in IP, money, or percieved value of a technology trade or whatever you're trading. I'm sure the AI assigns a relative value for whatever it is and that figues into the decision making... if you're relations aren't so hot then the AI could want more or just say yeah we'll vote but then not vote for it., and each choice could carry different amounts, possibly variable in nature depending on how good of a choice the AI thinks it's getting out of the deal.

Pretty broad, but I think anything is better then how the UP meets, if the AI stuff can't be done without too much extra code just give the human player the ability to vote on what to vote on, and the AI's too. It can be random, so you win some lose some but you'd feel like you're a lil more in control rather then not in control at all now.
Reply #5 Top
Agreed on the invasion system, I'd prefer something closer to Rome: Total War, where you could massacre a planet if it was rebellious, but you'd loose the population.

It just grates that even as a good civilization I'm forced into mass genocide just to take a planet. Hell, couldn't we just blockade the planet and starve them into surrendering.
Reply #6 Top
UP could have been such a great addition to the game... At the moment it's quite dull an shallow.
Reply #7 Top
It's not because you trash the standing army that you hold the planet. A substantial part of the population might go into a resistance, making planetary invasions a very tedious undertaking. Starting over with a clean slate (except for those peeps you bribed into joining you) by slaying everyone is an option


Problem is, it's the only option. I accept that much of the population might go into resistance and fight back, but not every last one of them.
Also- what the heck is the little invasion movie thing about. It's the worst thing I've ever seen.

Space is BIG. Very big. Considering most of the action in GC2 takes place outside of a solar system, you'd be hard pressed to find asteroid fields, energy fields et al. You pick a direction to blast off from earth, and you're highly unlikely to ever go through anything like that, you're most likely to simply fly through 'empty' space.


This is true. However, until Earth is less than a light year from sol, planets have more than one moon, saturn, pluto et al actually EXIST, realism will remain elsewhere. This is a game after all, fun is more important than cosmological accuracy.

Reply #8 Top
Im used to the planetary invasions thing now... yeah i hated it too at first but now i kinda like it... makes long drawn out wars with heaps of conquest unsustainable. i would vote against changing it.

I LOVE the idea of terrain... so what space is big ect terrain in space (similar to the purple stuff in MOO that halved shields) and im sure if anyone can get an ai to do it stardock can. will give a new element to space combat i feel. i think its more a feature for gal civ 3 imho tho..

The UP SHOULD be addressed in the expansion i feel. There is so many prior examples of a UP / diplomacy system that is a viable strategy to get your civ ahead. Moo3 i thought was an awesome UP system, being able to set up trade sanctions enforced by everyone in the council , research trade restrictions , getting everyone to declare war ect ect was awesome. Galciv 2's council system is probably the WORST i have seen in a game, its funny to see the galaxy voting on what speed constructers should run at when i am busy subjugulating the entire universe with fleets of huge starships mercilessly crushing all.
Espionage is dull too and totally free from any sort of strategy or tactics, the only decision i have to make during a game about espionage is whether i really need/want to bother with it, most of the time i dont... one of my fave. races in Moo was the darloks i love being a sneaky bastige

I reckon the expansion will need to address these things MORE than worry about new campaign ect. If i want a story i'll go read Asimov, i come here to get a strategy fix dammit

Reply #9 Top
I reckon the expansion will need to address these things MORE than worry about new campaign ect. If i want a story i'll go read Asimov, i come here to get a strategy fix dammit


I think so, too. I wonder which % actually plays/has played the campaign (new poll?) I voted against the 8,95 expansion just because there is much more important stuff to do!

I can also second everything the OP said:
Especially the "planet invasion". I still find it quite strange that REAL planetary bombardement is not possible because it would be genocide, but at the same time you MUST kill the whole population through conquest. I don't see a lot of difference: bravery?? At least not, if you have a strong advantage in soldering!
Therefore, I still would like to see a standing army concept and population management concept (maybe similar to Moo2). There should be some problem with Drengins in the human empire, but should not be obliged to kill all of them everytime.
Reply #10 Top
Well thought-out original post, and good responses.

If the AI can handle terrain, I'd love to see it!

I agree that the UP is perhaps the least successful part of the game. It's more like a random event than an active ingredient in strategy.

I'm not sure how to get AI to handle a revised UP, but I never noticed the AI doing dumb stuff in SMAC, and if Sid Meiers' team can pull it off ~7 years ago, I'm sure the StarDock guys & gals can come up with something cool here.

Even playing at the "Bright" level, the AI still has a bad habit of spamming starbases. I hope to see that fixed sometime soon!
Reply #11 Top
I would only pay money for an expansion if it included a new Campaign or Multiplayer.
Reply #12 Top
Have to agree about UP. Even the much slammed Moo3 did that better...
Reply #13 Top
why do you have to wipe out every last citizen? ... The remaining half would actually get conquered and become part of the invading civ


Information warfare allows for unhappy inhabitants to join your invasion force, assuming the morale is low enough to make it worthwhile.

Keep the ethical dilemmas coming, even after the player chooses an alignment. Here's the kicker though- if they stray from their alignment too far, they lose some of the bonuses they gained.


Jesus Christ, no way. They're bad enough Pre-Xeno Ethics. Every one of them is designed to make you either choose evil or take a penalty. This would ruin the game for me and probably most other people.

The power of mining starbases depends to a great extent on your own tech level. Their effect can be telling but I haven't encountered a situation where there effects became overpowering.


Mining a military resource or two can take you from last to first in military rating, assuming you have industrial sector. An influence resource (and christ I hate those) can more than triple your influence. I agree with the OP: I'd like to disable resources as a galaxy option.
Reply #14 Top
@mikeswi
Info warfare isn't enough though. You shouldn't have to kill everyone, nor should you have to miss out on the option for invasion tactics just to make a handful surrender.

I don't think a checkbox to disable ethical questions would be too hard. After all, the AI don't get them, so it'd be fairer. I'd like to see a few more too- I don't give a damn if they use the same pictures, just broaden things a bit.

More options in general would be nice, I guess. How many minor races, etc etc.