Draginol Draginol

The AI vs. Summer

The AI vs. Summer

The weather improves...

http://draginol.joeuser.com/articles.asp?aid=118239

The GalCiv II team keeps working on new updates. But more and more of that coding is occurring during the spare time of the developers.  For example, I'm only budgeted to work on the game a few hours per week at this point. In effect, most of my time working on the game is during my nights and weekends.

On every Stardock game for the past several years, my job has been to manage the overall project and then come in near the end to go hard core on the parts of the game that need the most work or that I'm specialized on.  Computer AI has been my programming specialty for the last decade or so.  As a result, I typically only do serious coding on a given project during the last few months. 

Once the game is starting to come together into something that can be played as opposed to being a technology, I move from managing the project to actively programming on it. I would also fill in the gaps that our project design document didn't assign out.  On GalCiv II, for instance, I came in and wrote up most of the technology descriptions, a good chunk of the alien conversations, the ship components, planetary improvements, and much of the "data" parts.  I also wrote most of the AI for GalCiv II (except for the diplomacy screen logic which was cobbled together by eveyone and the planetary surface/improvement backend for picking out what gets built on planets).  The economics and tons of gameplay tweaks I also code on.

After the game ships, I get involved in pieces here and there. I'm like an older, uglier (but better spelling/grammar <ducks>) version of Boogiebac where I look at what I think needs to be tweaked in text or in code and does what needs to be done with a heavy bias towards AI and economics.

But at this point, it's on weekends.  There's a LOT of stuff that I have to do during the day.  Running a company is a full-time job unto itself as you might imagine.  And the 3/4ths of our business that isn't games (like Object Desktop) is getting ready for next year's release of Windows Vista.

Like many gamers and modders out there, I enjoy doing this stuff.  I like reading the forums (most of the time) and playing the game. I get ideas or spot stupid AI things and then go in and try to figure out why it did something stupid or how I can make it better.

For instance, tonight I changed the starting position code a bit so that there tends to be a bit more space between players. I also tried to improve the planetary improvemenet handling.  The original coding for planet surface stuff is expertly written but it's not my code and I have a hard time following some of it. It's also different from how I would have written it so I do my best to update it to try to be "Smarter" based on playing the game and reading posts.  I think I've gotten it so that it won't build a gagillion embassies or entertainment centers. The cause seems to be that those two types of buildings were not defined and as a result there was no limit on how many of that "kind" of building could be made. It was pretty deep in there so it took some doing. 

I also put in more code to make different players play more differently in terms of what they research, how aggressive they are, and numerous other things.  Another thing I did was change the way the AI handles bribes/gifts so that players won't necessarily (easily) just give it a bunch of goodies, crank relations up to close and ally. 

One area I think was significant improved but we'll have to wait until more players get their hands on it is in terms of strategic gameplay.  The AI tends to focus on sectors to conquer (much like a human would) but it woudl tend to focus on too many sectors still and its forces would never be focused enough to overwhelm an expert human player who was focusing their resources.

A challenge that will take more time to deal with is that the computer players have reached the level where they are plenty tough for me.  That is, unless I'm playing on a very specific setting or playing with a very specific style, the AI at higher than tough difficulties will cream me.  My view is that anyone being 1.2 at anything higher than tough consistently is probably doing some sort of exploit at which point you just gotta decide whether you want to play a game or game the program? The AI doesn't "care" whether it loses. So if you figure out that you can some starbase/resource/ship combo or find some diplomacy trick to "Win" then knock yourself out.  But I won't be spending my summer weekends trying to "fix" something like that.

After 1.2, the update path starts to slow a little as we move towards expansion packs. There will be a 1.3 still but the development team (even now) is working on this stuff in their spare time too.  When you see a post from one of us on the weekend, don't think we're getting paid to do that.   We do it because we love the game and love you guys.  We love the community.   At the same time, I hope people realize that it is the good will and encouragement from that community that keeps these incredible updates going. 

Sometimes I see things on the forums or in email (particularly Cari's email) that are incredibly rude and come across with such an attitude of entitlement that it can really take the wind out of ones sails.  When someone makes a post like "X MUST be fixed" (where X is some trivial issue that few people care about) or a post that makes outright demands (as opposed to requests) on what "MUST" be in 1.2 or 1.3 that sort of thing is pretty grating.  I know seeing some guy on the forum saying how the "AI sucks" doesn't make me inclined to spend a sunny weekend working on it.  I mean, heck, I've been making games for 15 or so years now. And I've been playing them longer than that.  I have a decent idea of what is "good" and what is "bad".  No game is perfect. But we left "good enough" a long time ago. Someone listing out a spelling error or some UI thing they don't like or some goof one of the AI players makes on occasion is not something that "must" be fixed out of some sense of quality control.  This isn't WoW where people are paying $15 a month and hence one expects continous updates. We keep updating it because - like I said - we love the game and we love the community.  It's a labor of enjoyment/love.   We're not looking for adoration, just respect and decency.

The betas of 1.2 should still show up sometime this month. The main features of 1.2 can be listed as:

  1. UI to choose mods (such as total conversion mods)
  2. Sample mod
  3. Significant UI improvements
  4. Some AI fixes/enhancements
  5. Memory optimization
  6. New Combat system (ships fire at the same time)

I am thinking of putting in a request so that the attacker gets a 25% attack advantage for that first round so that there is still an advantage in being the attacker.

For 1.3, it'll be fairly modest tweaks and improvements.  After that, the team will be working on the expansion pack.  The art team is currently split between making cut-scenes for the expansion pack and making ship-content for an $8.95 ship component pack.  The idea is to be able to lower the cost of the expansion pack a bit.  People (like me) who love having cool looking hulls and ship parts can get those (And I've seen some early stuff, it's far better than what's in the game, the art team has really mastered how to do this stuff). And the people who don't care about the ship design stuff can skip that if they want.

115,904 views 92 replies
Reply #51 Top
So basically, all the talk about years of updates was empty hype.
We have to pay at least an additional 20$ for those updates (and more expansions will mean even more money). Well, that makes this game no different then every other existing game with an expansion.
I actually thought that you had a budget for updates but now I see that the people at Stardock don't even get paid for updating the main game.

Yes, I will probably buy the expansion regardless so this makes no difference to me but I do find it a tiny bit irritating.
Especially since you still haven't fixed the most obvious stuff that were reported ages ago, like the incorrect Industrial Bonus & Research Bonus on the government screen.
Reply #52 Top
ignuss,

So far we've gotten a fairly major update with a few minor ones for "free". We're slated to get one more big push in 1.2, and a slightly less significant one in 1.3. These patches aren't jusst bug fixes either mind you, they're adding new content and features well beyond what was originally promised. We've already seen more post-release support from Stardock on this one title that we saw from Atari on Master of Orion 3 in all the years since release. Hell, this is more support than 99% of retail games ever see.

And in case you're not familiar with GC1, they were giving free patches (independent of the expansion) up until a good ways into the development of GalCiv 2. No, we won't get huge patches like 1.1 forever, but that's just a limit of time and money.

They do have a budget for updates btw, it's just that with a small development team and numerous other projects to work on (I get the feeling Society is starting to ramp up) they can't have devs full-time on the game at this point. It'll ramp up for the expansion, then down again to a reasonable level for support. You can't expect full-time support indefinitely for free, there has to be some income to support the work. And I think you're taking the "working on weekends and evenings thing" a bit too far. I didn't necessarily read it as they're not getting paid to do the work required of them, rather I read it as they choose to do it in their spare time because they actually want to... but that when it comes to coding the game versus summer fun, don't be surprised for the sun and warmth to win out.

And yes, they've missed a bunch of typos and inconsistent bits of displayed information. But honestly, I'd rather they focus on the AI and game crash bugs before going after incorrect info displays that aren't a huge deal. Also, how did you report the bug? On the forums or in an email to [email protected]? E-Mail a detailed description with a screenshot for illustration and you probably stand a far better chance of getting it fixed.
Reply #53 Top
Zoomba, your post doesn't make much sense after Frogboy's journal and reply. Yes, I'm aware that they probably had a budget for 1.1 but that's at most a couple of months and it's apparently empty now.
And as for his reply in this thread:

Once the expansion comes out, we'll be continuing to provide updates to that like we have on the base game.

So another way of looking at it is that after 1.3, it'll be the expansion and after that it'll be updates to the expansion.

Unless there has been some communication mistake, he say's that after 1.3, there won't be any more significant updates to Galciv 2. This means that we will maybe get one half-year of excellent support and after that, they will maybe fix a critical bug when it's necessary. Frogboy has stated repeatadly that Stardock keep updating their programs with not only bugs, but with new stuff. Apparently, this is only true if you spend 20$ on the expansion.
Sounds like hype to me.

You can't expect full-time support indefinitely for free, there has to be some income to support the work.

The only reason that I expected it, is because Frogboy has said that they are going to do it (that is, measured in years, not indefinitely, definitly not in months though).
Hype?

Also, how did you report the bug? On the forums or in an email to [email protected]?

What's the point when Frogboy himself stated that the government info was wrong and should probably be fixed, ages ago. I don't particularly enjoy reporting the same stuff over and over.
And a couple of incorrect text-strings should IMO take far less time then AI etc. and shouldn't in any significant way decrease the time spent on AI etc.
Reply #54 Top
Could we hear an AMEN on 49! Okay, now delete it please.

W/R
Suralle
Reply #55 Top
A few modest observations from an amateur, Mr Wardell :

1. You said : "I think I've gotten it so that [the A.I. players] won't build a gagillion embassies or entertainment centers. The cause seems to be that those two types of buildings were not defined and as a result there was no limit on how many of that "kind" of building could be made."

I believe there is a civilizational principle involved in that matter which should be applied to Human players. At the moment, we can over-specialize a planet by building on it "gazillion" stock exchanges to pump up financial revenue. Is that not "cheese", and totally unrealistic from a civilizational point of view? I can accept that a planet specializes in economic output, but not by being painted wall-to-wall with banks or stock exchanges! I do that at the moment and I am not proud of doing so because it is just a trick to reduce the negative cash-flow which occurs from the very start of the game. I do not feel that I am building a Civilization in Space. I am forced by the persistent negative cash-flow to manage a Financial Spreadsheet by resorting to artificial tricks, such as building 10 stock exchanges on a level 11 planet. My conclusion is that there should be a limit of buildings of each type for a planet, but that this limit should vary depending on the type of building.

2. You also said : "Another thing I did was change the way the AI handles bribes/gifts so that players won't necessarily (easily) just give it a bunch of goodies, crank relations up to close and ally."

Well, I must be unlucky or incompetent because I only play at the normal level of difficulty and my gifts to the A.I. empires rarely push them beyond "Friendly", and then, this artificial friendship does not last long : the diplomatic meter eventually falls back to "Warm" and "Neutral". And this happens to me despite the fact that I design a custom race with a max bonus in Diplomacy and that I research the items that boost Diplomacy! Perhaps I give them the wrong kind of gift : I do a lot of research, so I give them free technologies. Also, as some have observed, perhaps the A.I. players are more impressed by military might : they would rather be "close" to a strong player (except when they feel a pressing threat) than be "friends" with a weaker player who showers them with gifts. Based on my experience, it is not so easy to "crank relations up to close and ally" by giving out "goodies". I am sad that you have changed the code to make my already difficult diplomatic maneuvers even more difficult. But perhaps I am incompetent at gift giving : I am open to suggestions from more experienced gamers.

Thanks a lot for your time and passionate dedication. JPC
Reply #56 Top
So what does this mean for the new CPU intensive AI that was talked about a few weeks ago? Has that slipped off the radar?
Reply #57 Top
Worked very well is a matter of opinion. There was so much cheese in GC1 due to the movement system before they took measures to clean it up I think most people would be hard pressed to call it 'working very well'.


Ubertaco -- I bought the game only last year, well after Altarian Prophecy came out. What was the update process like then? Was there an Internet forum to complain on? Did they release fixes or just patch it all in the expansion? What kind of cheese was there? I remember my friend said if he put any combat ship in a sector with an enemy transport it would freeze and not move toward his planet, but I never noticed that at all. You could mislead ships sometimes too, but not so that it broke the game.
Reply #58 Top
At this point I don't recall the names for all the cheese and most(?) of it got fixed eventually. Alot of it had to do with using noncombat ships to blockade people and the like. You could wall things off quite effectively for example.
Reply #59 Top
So what does this mean for the new CPU intensive AI that was talked about a few weeks ago? Has that slipped off the radar?


Frogboy posted in another thread that for the moment, not a lot of the AI can use the extra CPU power. I got the impression that this will be an ongoing effort, and that the AI will be able to utilize this ability more & more as he continues to tweak/upgrade it.

By the way, Stardock, I'm a member of the largely silent majority who is very happy with your efforts thus far. I'm still hooked on GC 2, despite having an ancient PC that has no business trying to run newer games. You guys have done an awesome job, and I for one at least am very appreciative of what's been accomplished with this fantastic (and way too addictive) game!
Reply #60 Top
2. You also said : "Another thing I did was change the way the AI handles bribes/gifts so that players won't necessarily (easily) just give it a bunch of goodies, crank relations up to close and ally."

Well, I must be unlucky or incompetent because I only play at the normal level of difficulty and my gifts to the A.I. empires rarely push them beyond "Friendly", and then, this artificial friendship does not last long : the diplomatic meter eventually falls back to "Warm" and "Neutral".


Couple of ideas here. One) Do you have trade routes with them? Trade routes can improve relations, long term. Two) Ethical alignment? Are you Good and them Evil, or vice versa?

My $0.02 worth,
JDS
Reply #61 Top
Reply to < tinplated Tuesday, May 23, 2006 8:27 PM > :

Thanks for your ideas to improve my diplomatic relations with the A.I. players, but you do not address my main point, in reply to Mr Wardell's statement :

"Another thing I did was change the way the AI handles bribes/gifts so that players won't necessarily (easily) just give it a bunch of goodies, crank relations up to close and ally."

I was stating that in my experience, the gifts of free techonologies to the A.I.s did not "crank relations up to close and ally". Despite my racial diplomatic bonus and the diplomatic advantages granted by research, my gifts of free techs rarely pushed the A.I.'s beyond "Friendly", and the gifts did not have a lasting effect : the meter often fell back to "Warm" and "Neutral". My point was that in my experience (mostly playing at a normal level with a neutral alignment), tech gifts did not "crank relations up to close and ally" with non-evil A.I.'s.

If Mr Wardell (for 1.2) has downgraded the effect of gift-giving, I shall get out of the gift-giving business altogether and concentrate on alternate ways of making allies (such as your idea of developing trade routes). But I was surprised that Mr Wardell felt the necessity to downgrade the power of gifts since, in my own experience, tech gifts did not have such a lasting, powerful effect. In what concerns giving out $$ credits, I never understood how much was required to produce a lasting effect. I would not want to give out thousands of credits to buy myself a temporary shift from "Friendly" to "Close".
Reply #62 Top
In 1.11 Friendly was enough to get Alliance, not Close.
And that together with being able to gift as much as possible even to someone who was "wary" (in one case I even gave up few planets, but who cares I won), and thus making all races friendly in same turn and making alliances was the cheesy thing that made me stop playing with Alliance victory turned on.
Reply #63 Top
I understand you want to avoid scripting the AI but adding the following rules would improve the planet build up:
(1) first two structures built on a planet should always be factories
(2) only factories may be built on manufacturing bonus titles
(3) only labs may be built on research bonus titles

I agree. These building rules are the right thing to do on all planets of PQ 6 and above.
Reply #64 Top
And I cannot find the method for increasing CPU time for the AI, I'm fairly sure it was due for 1.11.


It might be this line in the Prefs.ini file:
AllowCPUIntensiveAlgorithms=0

Try setting it to 1.

I have, but it changes itself back to 0 sometimes. I'll have to check if it resets on every game or not.

Maybe one of the devs could confirm it, though. I have not seen a checkbox for it in the setup screens.
Reply #65 Top
I just set the value to 1, started a game, saved it, exited the game and had a look at prefs.ini again: The value was back to 0.
I don't think the option is really in or changes anything right now.
Reply #66 Top
Brad don't let the miniscule bad posts or email get you down. Remember POSITIVE thinking is successful!!

GalCiv II has taken a lot of my life away already. hehe Even before the patches I was enjoying it. Every improvement you make to me is just like more chocolate icing on the cake. You guys are doing a great job and at least you talk to us and let us know what is going on.

With that I really only have 1 suggestion atm on the new combat system. You mentioned perhaps still giving the attacker a 25% bonus, something I would prefer is a bonus to first strike to those ships with more "experience" on both sides. This would make it more like a roleplaying in space sort of thing with certain ships having great captains like Kirk or Picard at the helm. Whatever you do will be fine though, just a suggestion of what I would like to see implemented.

Thanks for a great game, now back to playing.
Reply #67 Top
Brad, you've created a wonderful entertainment product here for those of us that relish a challenging and epic strategic game tailored for players who like to think before they move. Simply stated: Thank you.
Reply #68 Top
I think in 1.11 readme is said that added option for more AI CPU usage although added, doesn't do a thing in 1.11.
Reply #69 Top
Brad please don't get discouraged. Galciv2 AI is very good but of course not unbeatable. The fact the AI can and does uses every option the game provides as well the AI reacts to what actions the human player does is a big plus and really all you can asked from any AI.
I don't know if you been over HoMMV forums but some there complaining how bad it's AI is comparing to Galciv2. I feel sorry for the person whio programmed HoMM5 AI as he getting hammered because Galciv2 AI. Any TBS AI in the future will probably be compared to Galciv2 AI.
Reply #70 Top
Don't get discouraged by a little negative feedback Frogboy. I'm a programmer too, and I know the feeling. Personally, I think if you really look at the number of people who are active on this forum, you should be proud. They may have some negative attitudes, but the fact that they're here, trying to make a contribution, says that they are playing your game. Keep in mind that many of them are probably very young, and probably don't even realize they are being obtuse. I get more negative feedback on my software than I do positive as well, but since I deal with mature business people in a controled corporate environment, they are much more polite about the verbage (usually lol).

I'm also an old-school gamer from way back before the Zork days. I can only imagine what it must take to produce a game with modern expectations of glitz and glitter while still having something that works the way it's supposed to. Congratulations to you and all of the people who contribute to this game and this forum. Also, thanks for the continued support. It's really cool that you guys are still sweating the details and listening to our opinions.

Here's one of my favorite programmer quotes (can't remember where I first heard it): "You can try to monkey-proof your programm, but you can't monkey-proof the monkeys"

Reply #71 Top

So basically, all the talk about years of updates was empty hype.
We have to pay at least an additional 20$ for those updates (and more expansions will mean even more money). Well, that makes this game no different then every other existing game with an expansion.
I actually thought that you had a budget for updates but now I see that the people at Stardock don't even get paid for updating the main game.

I think people can look at the change log of 1.1 and 1.11 (not even counting 1.2 and 1.3) and conclude for themselves.

Every version we come up with feature/bug fix list X.  The dev team has not only done that but the added things on top of that -- which they do in their spare time.

I've done, in terms of raw hours, more AI coding post release than I did during the actual game's development. We're talking hundreds of hours.

To the all caps guy - users only have to register one time. They have to type in their serial # to get updates. I don't really see how that can be considered a real ordeal in exchange for getting what I think many people would consider an expansion pack's worth of updates free.

Reply #72 Top

Unless there has been some communication mistake, he say's that after 1.3, there won't be any more significant updates to Galciv 2. This means that we will maybe get one half-year of excellent support and after that, they will maybe fix a critical bug when it's necessary. Frogboy has stated repeatadly that Stardock keep updating their programs with not only bugs, but with new stuff. Apparently, this is only true if you spend 20$ on the expansion.
Sounds like hype to me.

We never implied we were going to do years of updates to GalCiv II base game.  Would you have been happier if the updates in 1.1 would have been spread over the course of 2 years?

I am not sure how exactly users would benefit from having to wait a long time to get updates.  I would prefer to get major, significant updates as quickly as we can.

There was Galactic Civilizations 1.0. Then 1.0X (bonus pack), then 1.1, soon 1.2, and then 1.3.  When one lists the work done between the 1.0 and the 1.3 update - just feature-wise you have easily an expansion pack and a half worth of new content -- for free.

I think someone can look at just the 1.1 list of changes and if those changes had been split into say a dozen smaller updates over the course of a year that most people would have considered that pretty good support. 

But instead, we did full crunch-mode level effort of the full team to get a 1.1 out quicker, the same with 1.2 (though things are starting to slow down) and 1.3 will still be a pretty significant update.

But I guess your posts prove the point - you can't please everyone.

Reply #73 Top

Brad don't let the miniscule bad posts or email get you down. Remember POSITIVE thinking is successful!!

GalCiv II has taken a lot of my life away already. hehe Even before the patches I was enjoying it. Every improvement you make to me is just like more chocolate icing on the cake. You guys are doing a great job and at least you talk to us and let us know what is going on.

With that I really only have 1 suggestion atm on the new combat system. You mentioned perhaps still giving the attacker a 25% bonus, something I would prefer is a bonus to first strike to those ships with more "experience" on both sides. This would make it more like a roleplaying in space sort of thing with certain ships having great captains like Kirk or Picard at the helm. Whatever you do will be fine though, just a suggestion of what I would like to see implemented.

Thanks for a great game, now back to playing.

Thanks for the feedback.  The main thing with first-strike is that any mechanic that allows a tactic to overcome a strategy is not a good thing in a strategy game.

In World War II, the US fought a war of attrition. That's how most wars are fought and certainly at the galactic scale I think that's how wars of annihiation would likely be fought.

Hence, the idea of a single ship turning the tide of war is problematic to me (Would the US have defeated the Japanese in World War II if we had lost at Midway? I am pretty sure we would have, it might have just taken a little longer and more atomic bombs would have likely been used).

That's why first-strike is such an issue (at least for me). When we put it in, we didn't recognize just how debalancing it was.  It makes defense research far less important than it should be (for instance).

So even if you had only experienced ships be able to do that, it would still (I think) amount to much the same).

 

Reply #74 Top
Ignus, #54's comments help make the case that game developers should never put in free features beyond the trivial because even when they do significant enhancements, as Stardock has already done, they won't get any credit or good will because people like ignuss will treat them as entitlements.

Getting a great game for $40 instead of the usual $50 isn't enough. Getting hundreds of new features, some fo which were pretty big already isn't enough. Getting months more of free updates and features isn't enough. No. The developers are expected to work for some indefinite period into the future for free or else Stardock's support is just "hype".

No middle ground. Either "hype" or unlimited servitude.
Reply #75 Top
Sometimes big bad bugs don't get discovered in first 5-6 months, when normal post-release support is active (aka patches).

What I usually don't like it that such bugs get fixed in expansion and for those that don't buy expansion... Well, don't get the fix.