So was Theodore Roosevelt evil for declaring war on the Japonese and then sending troops to fight Germany and Italy? Yes, I know of the Axis powers.

Sure...you know of the Axis powers, but do you know about the Allied powers? One of them was called the United States of America and its leader (president) at the time was "Franklin" Roosevelt

On a more serious note,
Evil = Targeting civillians for terror purposes (busses, cafes, buildings)[\quote]
- More example in the category: Dresden Firebomb, Tokyo Firebomb, Nuke, Vietnam

Simplifications:

Evolution=Mutation+Predation+ Attraction


Philosophies:

Be free to do what you want as long as you don't take the freedom of others. -Wade

"Speak for your self and question authority." -I can't remember...a sixties rock band member.

"We are all the stuff of Stars." -Carl Sagan

-Wade

What just happened to the 51 comments? Were they deleted by Stardock?

-Wade

Lol, we are at page 2 now

Evil = Targeting civillians for terror purposes (busses, cafes, buildings) Good = Targeting combatants for stopping terror (yes, it includes buildings such as factories)

Good = Killing civilians while trying to stop terror ?????
Good = Liberating a country with a very naive plan about what will happen afterwards and losing control over it ?????
Good = Supporting dictators that are friendly while trying to remove dictators that aren't ?????
etc...

No, the world isn't black and white, even if you feel comfortable thinking that way.

Okay, I think we can sum up this whole Evolution issue. Like most disagreements, I think there're some terminology issues. Now, I may be incorrect in some of these (please correct me if I am) but I beleive these are pretty correct statements:

Fact: Something that is irrefutably true.
Theory: Something that has been tested thoroughly and generally accepted as reproduceable to the point where it can be assumed to happen.
Proof: There is enough evidence to assert something else.
Herein lies the confusion. When scientists use their evidence are they "proving" their hypothesises to be facts, or theories? The answer would be theories.

Now, facts are hard to come by and the line is often blurred between fact and theory. For example, gravity. It's fact that when I tossed my mouse in the air, it fell back towards the ground (And popped the battery out, I might add.) Now there is a theory that says that if I toss it up again, it would fall to the ground again. It's not a fact, yet. The attractive forces of the universe could shut off all of a sudden and it would float there. Someone could catch it before it hit the ground. Thus, it is not yet Fact. It's fact that the evidence collected happened. The theories extrapolated from that are not fact.

Now, one of you said that neither evolution nor creationism could be proven. This is not quite true. Evolution is a proven "theory." It is not a proven "fact." We could be visited by aliens who have been hovering over out planet for trillions of years and prove evolution as fact. Alternatively, God could open up the clouds and tell us directly, thus proving Creationism as fact. As they stand, both are, at best, theories.

But I'm tired so yeah. I think that would clear a bit of it up.

So was Theodore Roosevelt evil for declaring war on the Japonese and then sending troops to fight Germany and Italy? Yes, I know of the Axis powers.

That was Frankiln D., not Theodore... Off by over a quarter century there (1901-1909 for Teddy, 1933-1945 for Franklin).

Organized religion is simply a way to control masses. Sorry! It also becomes a crutch and "the easy way out" when it comes to explaining the universe around us. When cornered, slogans like, " I aint a kin to no monkey" are common.
Just visit the SE U.S. Not to mention all the major strife in the world is cause by religious conflict.

Let's talk Scientology while we're at it. They believe we are all infected with alien souls and the only way to get rid of it is throubgh, you guessed it, Scientology. This is why Tom Cruise stopped South Park from running the "scientology episode" again. They exposed the ridiculousness of it all AND the self-righteousness and unwillingness to listen to ANY OTHER THEORIES about anything.

None of the major religions is any different; a fable MADE UP BY PEOPLE trying to win converts and control masses.

I'll take a purely scientific theory any day. They are looking for real answers, not to convert people to their way of thinking (like the Taliban and pretty much ALL religions).

Personally I find it hilarious that on one hand ,the 'God' people are willing to accept the belief in an entity that they have no shred of evidence for, and on the other hand demand on 100% proof that evolution is true. I suspect the anti-evolution people won't accept any proof or evidence, unless we build a time machine and go back in time to show them with their very eyes that it is true.

Probably even then they would question the validity of time travel etc.. My question to anti-evolutionists is, what evidence would you need before you could be convinced that evolution is true?

Please, think of evolution as a crime investigation, a whodunit. If you are a juror , would you tell the CSI team that "despite the fingerprints, the dna samples, the footprints etc this is still not proof he did it! it's just a theory you dreamed up"!

Of course you could, and you would be right, it's a theory!

Now, one of you said that neither evolution nor creationism could be proven. This is not quite true. Evolution is a proven "theory." It is not a proven "fact." We could be visited by aliens who have been hovering over out planet for trillions of years and prove evolution as fact. Alternatively, God could open up the clouds and tell us directly, thus proving Creationism as fact. As they stand, both are, at best, theories.

Indeed, but not all theories are equal. Theories can be falsified, altough there are always ways to modify them to avoid this fate.

What I find sickening is that most of these 'God people' have no problems with other theories which if they are consistent they would refuse to believe either, but have problems with only the ones that contradict their religion.

Why don't you see these chrtistians decrying that the big bang theory is just a theory? Heck evidence for the big bang theory is not as irrefutable as some think. The reason they don't oppose the big bang theory is because it fits their religious beliefs...

Here's a link to Scott Adams' take on the whole 'God' thing (Dilbert author)
Link

Well worth a read for anyone who's interested

Is that TIC or is it posted in the genuine belief that thats what the good guys do? yeeeehaw y'all

regards stodge

If that was aimed at me, no, it wasn't TIC. But then it doesn't seem that you really got what I was writing.
My point was that as most things in the world, USA as a whole aren't completly good nor completly evil but somewhere in-between.

Here is another tangent to this conversation.

I regret all of this anti-American feeling around the world, especially in the Western Europe. How quickly people forget what we have done for them and what we are continuing doing for them. Only Britain is holding on to the old friendships. Thus they are the only country in Europe that I listen to.

This joke called the UN is the worst of all. It could not exist without us. We pay 30% of its total budget but it takes every opportunity it gets to slap us in the face. Why are they upset…. because we are the only country in the world capable of doing what we have done without their blessing. We are the ones capable of knocking of a cruel dictator and we are the “evil” ones for doing it. When they send in these “peace keepers”, they just stand on the sidelines with a bucket of popcorn and what the killing.

What would happen if America would just go into a cocoon tomorrow? Chaos is what would happen. North Korea invades South Korea. China invades Taiwan and possibly Japan. Iran conducts a nuclear Jihad. Israel is at war with the entire Middle East. Pakistan and India possibly go to war. Europe’s power balance shifts east. The UN collapses because they now have no military muscle or cash. Many of these little third world governments collapse without American financial aid. “Ethnic Cleansing” goes on unchecked.

America is looked down upon, but the world does not know how much they need us. The USSR collapses and suddenly we are the bad guy. The world takes us for granted. We give more relief aid than the rest of the world combined and we can’t even get a thank you. We get an F-you.

I regret all of this anti-American feeling around the world, especially in the Western Europe. How quickly people forget what we have done for them and what we are continuing doing for them. Only Britain is holding on to the old friendships. Thus they are the only country in Europe that I listen to.

You listen only to people who agree with you? Or do you count friends as only people who do what you say?

Let me change "listen to" to respect in my previous comments.

I used to listen to France and Germany, but they wait to here are opinion so they can just take the other side. That is how their politics work. Always be against the USA. Western Europe is being taken over by Islam. France, Belgium, Holland are powder kegs waiting to blow. Islam will probably win because Europe lacks the intestinal fortitute to resist.

This is a very pesimistic view, but I see little evidence that Europe has what it takes to resist.

Wrong. Hitler was never really religious, just claimed to be to win popularity (which he really didn't need in the end: he was loved, and killed people who didn't love him) Bush actually claims to be sent by God. I'll admit to not be an American, and not know the laws. But I SWEAR that there was a seperation of church and state in there somewhere. Having a, sorry if this offends anyone, moronic fanatic who claims divine right (the thing that we over here cut James the first's head off for) as his reasoning is a conflict to that.

Bush is as much a liar about religion as Hitler was, and as much a Christian as Carl Sagan.

He used organized religion to get reelected, since the illegal tactics of his first election could not be repeated under the conditions at the time of the latter election, and then spat in its (organized religion's) face with his acts following his reelection.

I can only be glad that he cannot be reelected (a third term in office in a row is not permitted in the USA), and hope that he cannot manage to either change that, or get into office again after one term with another President.

Get all the fools on your side and you can be elected to anything. - Frank Dane

Anyhow, I am getting tired of all the long-winded bushwah in this thread, enjoy yourselves.

Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something. - Plato

What would happen if America would just go into a cocoon tomorrow? Chaos is what would happen. North Korea invades South Korea. China invades Taiwan and possibly Japan. Iran conducts a nuclear Jihad. Israel is at war with the entire Middle East. Pakistan and India possibly go to war. Europe’s power balance shifts east. The UN collapses because they now have no military muscle or cash. Many of these little third world governments collapse without American financial aid. “Ethnic Cleansing” goes on unchecked.

America holds all Africa in debt. America has refused to wipe the debts of any nations, and when back in the 20's, the stock market crashed and the world went down. Why? Because America was the economic capital? no. Because they made sure that everyone went with them by demanding debts payed. Now, they won't help end world poverty because they see it profitable

Money means power. It doesn't mean the world should cuddle up to America. Don't say that without America the world would collapse. The world might listen to money, it doesn't respect it.

And why are you moaning about the UN? Does anyone listen to them? Right now, America does it's own thing because it can, and thinks that's right. They shouldn't have gone near Iraq for example, and thanks to that "peacekeeping" the country will probably collapse the second it's abandoned.

This joke called the UN is the worst of all. It could not exist without us. We pay 30% of its total budget but it takes every opportunity it gets to slap us in the face.

The US pledged to pay 30% but never paid in full or on time. In fact US has the highest outstanding debt to UN among all its members. They also vote to reduce UN funding from 30% to 25% too. The UN treatened to remove US voting power in the General Assembly if the US didn't pay their due (no taxation no representation - sounds familiar?) but the US could not care less. The UN is a joke only because the way the US treats it.

To be fair, US is not the only member with outstanding debt to UN. It just has the highest debt, almost 50% of all members' debts combined.

Why are they upset…. because we are the only country in the world capable of doing what we have done without their blessing.

You mean they are upset because the US does not care or respect the decisions of the UN committees and general assembly? So much for democracy.

No one question the superpower status of the USA. Heck...many who look down on America will probably accede that US is the world leader right now. The reason they are so disappointed with the US is that the US acts more like a bully than a leader.

My question to anti-evolutionists is, what evidence would you need before you could be convinced that evolution is true?

Better yet. Let's turn the question on its head. What evidence would you need so that CREATIONISM is INVALIDATED? If you want to present creationism as a scientific theory, it must be falsifiable (doesn't mean that it is false, but it COULD be wrong).

Evolution theory is falsifiable. If they somehow find skeletons or remains of a sophisticated specie that is older than a more simpler specie, the evolution theory will come crashing down. Because it will mean that a more sophisticated specie doesn't have to evolve from a simpler one. The evolution theory is still healthy because no one ever find an older, but more sophisticated specie at all.

This is a very pesimistic view, but I see little evidence that Europe has what it takes to resist.

To resist what exactly? Sure, there are racists in this country too who would agree with you but I don't think a little islamic growth in Europe will bring us down in flames
I should add that it doesn't surprise me that you are so clueless about Europe (and the rest of the world) if all the news you get are from american media.

America holds all Africa in debt. America has refused to wipe the debts of any nations, and when back in the 20's, the stock market crashed and the world went down. Why? Because America was the economic capital? no. Because they made sure that everyone went with them by demanding debts payed. Now, they won't help end world poverty because they see it profitable

BULL! Where do you think that money came from? We borrowed it!!!!!!!! This country is so far in debt it is pathetic. We can't afford to do it anymore. Aftrica is nomore held hostage than we are to others who hold notes on our debt. Get over your elitism and sense of entiltlement.

To resist what exactly? Sure, there are racists in this country too who would agree with you but I don't think a little islamic growth in Europe will bring us down in flames I should add that it doesn't surprise me that you are so clueless about Europe (and the rest of the world) if all the news you get are from american media.

YOUR CULTURE DISAPPEARING! I'm not racist. I don't support that cult called ISLAM.

You mean they are upset because the US does not care or respect the decisions of the UN committees and general assembly? So much for democracy.

You mean they are upset because the US does not care or respect the decisions of the UN committees and general assembly? So much for democracy.

We are beholden to the US Constitution. America has not surrendered its sovierty to the UN. We are Americans not whomever. I don't care how Libya, China, Syria, Gana, or any other country votes. Without the American people agreeing to it, forget it.

OHHH! I forgot to mention, GC2 is awesome.

Last post in this tread.

YOUR CULTURE DISAPPEARING! I'm not racist. I don't support that cult called ISLAM.

Well, you are either that or totally braindead. Islam is not a cult, it's a religion. Do you really think that all us europeans are going to convert to Islam
All religions will die out in time, unfortunatly none of us will live to see it.

Consumed Crustacean - I do believe in evolution and natural selection. I think natural selection is also very reasonable. But there are people (scientists too) who argue against macroevolution and i am still open for their ideas too. That's why i say it's debatable. Microevolution is very difficult to refute as I say. - You are spot on though when saying that creationism is not a science, just a belief. I don't think the Bible is open for falsification.

Not a one honest scientist that I've seen. They argue natural selection sometimes, but they all tend to agree that "macroevolution" does happen through some means. Again, it's hard to disagree with the abundant fossils and clear genetic evidence.

YOUR CULTURE DISAPPEARING! I'm not racist. I don't support that cult called ISLAM.

The second largest religion, and fastest growing major religion in the world, and it's a disappearing cult?

We are beholden to the US Constitution. America has not surrendered its sovierty to the UN. We are Americans not whomever. I don't care how Libya, China, Syria, Gana, or any other country votes. Without the American people agreeing to it, forget it.

Your own president would disagree about the whole constitution thing. ZING!

BULL! Where do you think that money came from? We borrowed it!!!!!!!! This country is so far in debt it is pathetic. We can't afford to do it anymore. Aftrica is nomore held hostage than we are to others who hold notes on our debt. Get over your elitism and sense of entiltlement.

Get over yourself jackass. It was asked for all debts to Africa to be cut off, so it can try to recover. The US blocked it. You're right though. Why are they entitled to "live". Who needs life anyway?

Islam is a religion, not a cult.

We are beholden to the US Constitution. America has not surrendered its sovierty to the UN. We are Americans not whomever. I don't care how Libya, China, Syria, Gana, or any other country votes. Without the American people agreeing to it, forget it.

You wish. You are beholden to your president's laws. If he acts like a prat, we get to say so. You are one of the most stupid people I've ever read on a forum.

Here is another tangent to this conversation. I regret all of this anti-American feeling around the world, especially in the Western Europe. How quickly people forget what we have done for them and what we are continuing doing for them. Only Britain is holding on to the old friendships. Thus they are the only country in Europe that I listen to. This joke called the UN is the worst of all. It could not exist without us. We pay 30% of its total budget but it takes every opportunity it gets to slap us in the face. Why are they upset…. because we are the only country in the world capable of doing what we have done without their blessing. We are the ones capable of knocking of a cruel dictator and we are the “evil” ones for doing it. When they send in these “peace keepers”, they just stand on the sidelines with a bucket of popcorn and what the killing. What would happen if America would just go into a cocoon tomorrow? Chaos is what would happen. North Korea invades South Korea. China invades Taiwan and possibly Japan. Iran conducts a nuclear Jihad. Israel is at war with the entire Middle East. Pakistan and India possibly go to war. Europe’s power balance shifts east. The UN collapses because they now have no military muscle or cash. Many of these little third world governments collapse without American financial aid. “Ethnic Cleansing” goes on unchecked. America is looked down upon, but the world does not know how much they need us. The USSR collapses and suddenly we are the bad guy. The world takes us for granted. We give more relief aid than the rest of the world combined and we can’t even get a thank you. We get an F-you.

Nauseating rubbish. America is acting ENTIRELY in its own self-interest. I don't have much of a problem with this since much of what's in their best interest is also in my own.

I do have a problem with any American people and the government who try to pretend what they're doing is at all heroic. Giving aid to poor countries is all well and good, but it's all PR bull. America's wealth is built on 3rd world labour, so you can bet they'll never give enough to break the dependency. They're potentially making a massive mistake by becomingdependent on China. (Something I am far from happy with. I'd rather see a democracy as the world's primary superpower, even one whose populace is collectively stupid enough to REelect a dangerous fool like George Bush, than communist China. Perhaps the increasing influence of western culture will change things there before it's too late. I hope so.)

A brutal dictator has been removed from Iraq...but lets not kid ourselves, positive result whilst it (arguably) is, it was primarily about oil. Bush doesn't even really bother to hide that much any more, consistently going on about the need for the US to secure supply lines. If it was even vaguely humanitarian, there are savage dictatorships and vicious civil wars aplenty in Africa which would be next on the list. But it's a dust bowl and will never pose the US a threat so the government doesn't really give a crap. Oil reserves are starting to pop up now though...so you can forget any slim possibility that might have existed for the cancellation of African debt. It's much easier to exploit a country whilst you have its economy in a stranglehold.