Declaring war: AI wierdness and the way it should work

Link it to their alignment!

from GalCiv2 Forums
I was playing in a gigantic universe with nine AIs. I was 2nd or 3rd with no military to speak of, but a huge industry. The Drath, a race who I'd only established contact with through one of their ships entering my space (I never saw it, so it was likely coming in through a wormhole) decided to declare war on me. They were about 8th overall. I was evil.

WTF??!!

Firstly, while their military may be stronger, my industry was far more powerful. The only way a military nation defeats an industry nation (assuming equal techs... and my research was strong too) is through a quick, aggressive strike, rather like the militaristic Japanese tried to beat the industrious Americans with in WWII. The thing is, there wasn't a Drath ship for miles... in fact I never saw one for the duration of the war. If the Drath weren't poised to attack, WTF was the point?

The AI should never declare war until its fleets are ready to strike. An Evil AI should never declare war in advance at all, it should simply attack and let that declare its state of war. Why do they declare? I can't declare, I have to attack to get a war. It's like the AI is intentionally crippled by forcing them to give a notification I don't have to give.

Best of all were when the Iconians (another race not anywhere near my space, yet who had for some reason been threatening me earlier) started giving me ships to help. It would have taken those ships months to reach my space and was possibly the most useless gift ever. I just traded them away to tip the scales in other deals, like alliances.

Finally, gettng fed up of people sending me ships, I contacted the Drath who told me "the war was a bit of a mistake on our part, wasn't it?" (strange, since there hasn't been a single battle, and no one has declared war on them) and then agreed to peace.

As the game proceeded I struck up alliance deals with nearby races and then, now in 10th place, the Drath declared war on me again! I still had yet to see a Drath ship. Of course, all my allies declared war on the Drath (WTF, don't they check the treaties screen??) and then, hilariously, they surrended to the Torians the next turn after cursing ME for defeating them!!! I never so much as fired a shot or made an aggressive demand, yet drove them to surrender! LOL!

To sum up:

* Good and Neutral AIs should declare war only when ready to attack.
* Evil AIs should never declare war, they should simply attack (which changes the status to war)
* I should be able to declare war.
* Failing to declare war before attack should lean you towards evil (and anyone who used Xeno Ethics to be Good or Neutral should be forced to declare at least a turn before attacking).
* AI should check for alliance treaties before attacking.
* Industry and Research should be factored into my strength. I may have no military, but if I have a ton of starports, lots of industry and healthy research, I'll be pumping out ships in no time, so you'd better be poised to take half my planets inside of a month. I never keep a standing military, yet have never lost a war.
* If you're not within SHIPS SPEED * X parsecs of my space, or my enemies space, don't give me ships!
10,755 views 17 replies
Reply #1 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
To sum up:

* Good and Neutral AIs should declare war only when ready to attack.
* Evil AIs should never declare war, they should simply attack (which changes the status to war)
* I should be able to declare war.
* Failing to declare war before attack should lean you towards evil (and anyone who used Xeno Ethics to be Good or Neutral should be forced to declare at least a turn before attacking).
* AI should check for alliance treaties before attacking.
* Industry and Research should be factored into my strength. I may have no military, but if I have a ton of starports, lots of industry and healthy research, I'll be pumping out ships in no time, so you'd better be poised to take half my planets inside of a month. I never keep a standing military, yet have never lost a war.
* If you're not within SHIPS SPEED * X parsecs of my space, or my enemies space, don't give me ships!



oh yea... good stuff...I totally agree.
Reply #2 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Hi!
What version of the game you're running? In 1.1 AIs take into account the distance to the target, so declaring a war to the race 10 sectors away has very low probability.
BR, Iztok
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Reply #3 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
In 1.1 AIs take into account the distance to the target, so declaring a war to the race 10 sectors away has very low probability.


It still happens though. The Thalans are the worst about declaring war even though it'll be a year, or two before your scouts are even in range.
Reply #4 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
The Drath probably declared war on you because you were evil and they were good, but you are right, if they don't intend on attacking you they shouldn't declare war.
Reply #5 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Dude, very good arguments! Well laid out!

I agree with everything you say, and the team at Stardock should chekc out your suggestions
Reply #6 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Some good points in there Quitch regarding the ways to go to war. I think finding out you are at war by being attacked would add alot to the way I approach a game but shouldn't be limited to bad empires. Anyone should be able to do it, but maybe good is less likely to do it.
Reply #7 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
most of what you said is already being taken into account in 1.1
Also i wouldnt care how industrieus you were if you had no military, and i had some. I would attack you.
Reply #8 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
True. No point in letting you become strong, I'd kill you the very second I had an opening.
Reply #9 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Also i wouldnt care how industrieus you were if you had no military, and i had some. I would attack you.


Well, the difference between you doing it and the AI doing it would hopefully be that you'd have ships in key positions and be hitting and taking planets a turn or two later. This would make you more likely to win against someone with a good industry. Someone with a good industry and starports will have a military to fight you in short order, so you'd best be making with the planet taking within a few months of declaring war.
Reply #10 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I am running 1.1, and this report is from 1.1, therefore it can't have been dealt with (effectively) in 1.1, and some of the above are suggestions rather than problems.

As for attacking me when I have industry, that was rather my point. It should have attacked, as and when it declared war. Unfortunately it sat back and I had time to produce ships (I didn't bother because there was a lot of allied territory between me and them and I had plenty of time to see them coming), thus meaning it obviously wasn't factoring in my huge treasury and enormous industry.

As Draknost said, fighting with a large military contingent but small industry against someone with a small military contingent and large industry means you need to work fast. Inside of a month that enemy Empire with have a large military contingent AND large industry, so you need to be ready to take planets fast!

I suggested that Good and Neutral should have to declare because once you've gone Xeno Ethics there's no leaning anymore, so the game can't slightly change your alignment, and so if you've decided to follow the path of good or neutral you shouldn't be allowed to sneak attack. Neutral certainly gets enough advantages as is and I only went Evil due to funds and neighbourly concerns
Reply #11 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I agree with all of your proposals Quitch.

I have noticed that the AI completly ignores alliances. The last game I played I had the strongest industry and military in the galaxy along with an enormous technological advantage. I was aimiing for a half-diplomatic victory and half-conquest victory (having to conquer half the galaxy makes things more interesting). I had allied with the Terrans (who had few planets and a small, but high tech military) and the Drath kept declaring war on them! The exchanges would go something like this:

Terrans: The Drath have declared war on us, help!

Me: All right, here is some money I will go talk to them.

Drath: This war would seem to be a mistake on our part...

Me: Fine how about a peace treaty between our empires, and you make another with the Terrans?

Drath: Very nice.

This happened three more times in the same game and delayed my diplomatic victory (declaring war does not help relations).
Reply #12 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Terrans: The Drath have declared war on us, help!

Me: All right, here is some money I will go talk to them.

Drath: This war would seem to be a mistake on our part...

Me: Fine how about a peace treaty between our empires, and you make another with the Terrans?

Drath: Very nice.



I had quite a big grin on my face when I've read that. I was just imaging you as the great-grand dad race with those terrans grand children running to you and criing about the Drath couse they've destroyed their toys.

----

On a more serious note, yes, the AI still has it's problems concerning this aspect of the game.
Reply #13 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I had quite a big grin on my face when I've read that. I was just imaging you as the great-grand dad race with those terrans grand children running to you and criing about the Drath couse they've destroyed their toys.


That is what I felt like at the time. Those childish humans, they always get me into trouble...
Reply #14 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I concur, I've seen some AI races just commit suicide by declaring war on me (or others) who have multiple allies. I've also had several of the 'long distance enemy never sighted' wars as well.

Heck, I've even had a couple combined where a race I've never seen declares war on me and my allies beat the snot out of them without me ever even getting to see a hostile ship.

Just like I've noticed that even if the AI does have a military advantage and is close it tends to plan poorly. It goes after scout ships and takes several turns to send out transports. Even then the transports are almost universally slow and unguarded; I tend to keep around a ship or two loaded down with nothing but engines and a single weapon for the express purpose of zooming in, blasting a transport, then flying back out of range.

Another thing I'd like to see is when you destroy an enemy freigther you get some credits for it. Why blow up that defenseless ship full of valuable cargo BEFORE plundering it?
Reply #15 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I agree with most of this. But I will say that I have seen the AI put more speed on it's ships on challanging. I also find that the AI makes speedier ships when Tech is set to slow and vary slow. since it gets to make new designs vary rarely.
Reply #16 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
i've got a current game where the lead AI has the same tech as me, HAD the biggest empire, 300 military rating, economy, and 25% of a gigantic size map. trans-warp 3 has been researched a long time ago, yet the AI still only puts 1 engine on each of its ships, and 4 sensors with 4 extend range with 1 or 2 weapons. I cant figure that out, because i have a minimum of 4 engines on any of my ships with a single range extender and the rest is weapons.

needless to say, i allied the 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th top AI's the turn 2nd AI asked for my help, and send out my large hull (16 missile attack, 17 speed, 2.4 range) ships in fleets of 3 and proceed to gut his fleets, troop transports, and straggeling escorts. Then i proceeded to turn a 40 hp large hull into a 150+ hp monster and eat his defender ships alive. right now most of my ships are d@mn near unkillable, the AI is knocked down to 160 military rating, yet i only have 140 grr...

the only thing the AI has responed to my ships is to build defenders with 12-20 missile defence, but then i just upgrade my juggernaughts to 25 missile attack speed of 21 and use fleets of 5. I almost feel sorry for that AI because i'm beating it so bad. Anything that launches from orbit is killed within 2 turns, and i kill 8 defenders on adverage every turn. only reasion i dont own ths AI's land is i build to few troop transports.
Reply #17 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I agree with all the OP's bullet points. Very good suggestions.

I'll add that the AI should take "space geography" into account when declaring war. If an AI is considering between attacking one of multiple races that are in an alliance with each other, he should almost NEVER choose the one that will require him to travel through the others' territory!

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