Buying Resource nodes?

Depends on the type of tech. The AI values some very highly. There are also a few other factors too. What were you trying to buy?

+ AI is much less likely to trade away mining starbases.

If you were playing 1.0X, then yes, this is different now.
As far as 1.1 beta 4 I was usually still able to get them at ~25,000 BC
I would expect different races to value different resources more and you might want to see if it is a well upgraded starbase. It's usually much easier to attack and take over a resource, but if they are your allies and you don't want to risk it, make work up some diplomacy and / or some techs or trade goods they may value highly like weapon techs.

Just tried it. Asking Thorians for mining starbase (Influence). Offered all my cash, 47K and got a no. Added all my ships (about 100) and still no. Threw in all my mining starbases (6 of em fully loaded) and still no. Finally decided to throw in all my planets but my capitol (23 planets) and still no. And the Thorians are at Friendly. I'm thinking its broken at the moment. While it was to cheap before, now there doesn't seem to be any price that they will sell at.

I actually think it's right now. I wouldn't sell a resource node for 47K either. 47K can be earned in a turn or two. Why should the AI sell? The only way the computer can avoid making a bad trade (meaning any trade that costs them a starbase) is to not trade at all. And if it made the trade, people would be complaining about how stupid the AI is (" that stupid AI sold me an econ base for 20K, HAHAHAHA!").
I think it's a sign that the AI's are now smarter. (I've also tried offerring them the works for a starbase and been turned down).

I actually think it's right now.......

You make some good points. However there could be a reasonable argument that if the AI is offered that much cash, ships and 23 planets it should be too strong an offer to refuse. After all the AI could have accepted the trade, finished you off, and then recaptured the resource.

+ AI is much less likely to trade away mining starbases.

Less likely shouldn't mean never..... or does it in this case...?

Given how often resources = victory, it seems silly for them to give up resources.

Most of my games before 1.1 ended very rapidly once I reached the point where I could start buying up influence resource starbases.

Yeah, it'd be nice if the AI looked to the next step - accepting your ridiculous trade, then trading your two of your six bases for theirs back.

You really should specify what difficulty level you are playing on. On the higher difficulties the AI won't give it away unless you offer ridiculous amounts of techs and planets, but it IS better that way. Sure, it is stupid to refuse a trade involving some good planets, but if it is not programmed to understand all the implications of such a trade, then it is better that it just refuses outright....

Sure, it is stupid to refuse a trade involving some good planets, but if it is not programmed to understand all the implications of such a trade, then it is better that it just refuses outright....

Thats a good point.

EZ

AR

As of Beta 4, the AI would trade anything away at the right price. I was able to get a fully developed resource for around 50k, but I was way ahead of the AI in terms diplomacy which gave me a huge advantage.

I agree something seems strange about how the AI values property trades-- even at high diplomacy ratings I'm never able to trade a planet for a similar class planet.

Here's what I think happens: For everything in the AI's inventory, it sets a BC value. "Intellectual property" like techs and trade goods it values fairly low. Other things that it can't trade and still have, it values highly. I'm pretty sure that the pricing is based partially on what percentage of the race's total property it represents. Buying a world from a race with 20 planets is a lot cheaper than buying their last planet.

Then it looks at what you have to offer, and assigns a cash value. But it's not using the same metric.

So a race might look at a trade and think "Hmmm... He's offering me a PQ 25 world, Doom Ray, and two full developed influence resources. Let's see... the blue book value on those would be 65k. He's asking for my only morale resource mine. That's like 25% of everything I own so I'm going to ask for 200k. Take 40% off due to his diplomatic advantage, 120k. No deal."

I'm not sure this is something they should fix. It would difficult for the AI to figure out "real values" without being able to predict the results. Should it trade an influence starbase for 3 high PQ planets? Not if influence starbase is going to let you flip those planets in a half dozen turns.

I'm thinking its broken at the moment.

I think it's fixed. Finding and buying all the influence and military resource starbases from other races was the easiest, cheesiest win ever. I still did it, but it was easy and cheesy.

While I agree, and was one of the many complaining, that it was way to easy/cheap in 1.0x to buy the starbases from the AI, I have to question the grounds of why the AI said no to the following trade:

AI Offer
- 1 5 module Influence Mining Starbase

My Offer
- 47,000 credits
- 1 10 module Influnce Mining Starbase
- 2 10 module Military Mining Starbase
- 1 10 module Morale Mining Starbase
- 1 10 module Economy Mining Starbase
- 1 10 module Research Mining Starbse
- 1 13 module Economy Starbase
- approx 100 med hull top of the line ships (I was lead in tech and the ships were the best I had)
- 23 planets fully built up. Random range from PQ4 to PQ23, average about PQ11.

This would have left me with 1 planet (my homeworld) and 2 medium hull ships in its orbit. Me and the Thorians were at Friendly. As I was top in tech I believe I was either egual or above in Diplomacy, but as I don't have the game currently in front of me I can't look and see.

So while I agree that it was way to easy before, the AI turning down the above offer seems insane to me. And no, I had no intention of actually trading all that. I just kept adding stuff to see what it would take to get an offer that the AI would accept. I was stunned when I had thrown in everything I had and they were still saying no. So thats why I'm thinking its broken at the moment. Not a problem, I can still play it, just not 'perfect' yet.

I agree with everything that you have written Magnum. I too have tested the AI with certain trades, stacked totally in their favour, for them to refuse the transaction. I don't consider that as being fixed but more of broken.

Maybe the AI now knows more about humans--for instance, that nobody will really give them the entire galaxy for one starbase. Realizing that you are just trying to either 1) fake them out with an offer you won't follow through on, or 2) offer them less than their property is worth (and why else would you agree to a trade?). I say they have outsmarted us! And any time an AI is smarter, trickier, more devious than we are...we should be thanking the devs for it, cuz it only makes the game better in the long run.
There is only one way to know the truth: give the AI an instant accept button, so that when you offer it your whole empire for a starbase, it can Accept before you have the chance take that offer away. If we had that, it would be the AI writing in to the forum about how stupid its human opponents are.

Actually I like it a lot more the way it is now. It was way too easy to get all resources for some cash before, it made winning even on suicidal kind of a no-brainer once you survived the start. Now you actually have to think of something to get these precious resources!

Think of it this way: The AI simply doesn't want to give the resource away, not for anything in the world. I'd do more or less the same regarding influence resources, once given away there might be a problem you can never get rid of again. Even getting planets in return can be deceptive because they might flip right back.

Maybe it's not perfect yet, but it has never been closer up to now.

the AI turning down the above offer seems insane to me.

If it had agreed and you'd have hit "Send", you would seem insane to the AI.

OK, slight thread hijack here.

I can't get the AI to sell influence resources, but I have had them give them away to assist in a fight against an enemy. Sometimes I'll get a few ships, worth maybe 500bc and another time I get an influence resource that they wouldn't trade for 70k bcs. Something screwy there. And this was with 1.1

Another issue I have is selling econ bases. I was going for an influence victory and took 2 planets from my ally via influence. There was a built up econ base that was now worthless (no trade routes were going through it) for the AI since in only covered the planets that were now mine. Again, it turned down a 50k bc offer for the starbase. Made no sense.

I think this way is the best way. I would not sell my resources for anything less than most of the players planets. I however have been able to buy minor races planets for all my tech and all my obsolete ships. Pretty funny really. I get rid of ships I don't need and get a good planet in return. I lose nothing in the deal. So basically the minor race go extinct for all my techs and ships they will never use. Its fun doing it when you see another races transports getting close to invading.

I can't get the AI to sell influence resources, but I have had them give them away to assist in a fight against an enemy. Sometimes I'll get a few ships, worth maybe 500bc and another time I get an influence resource that they wouldn't trade for 70k bcs. Something screwy there. And this was with 1.1

I thought that they had fixed so that the AI:s never gave away starbases when they wanted to help someone in 1.1. I know that I have never seen AI:s give starbases to each other since one of the older betas of 1.1 and before that I saw it happening alot.

I thought that they had fixed so that the AI:s never gave away starbases when they wanted to help someone in 1.1. I know that I have never seen AI:s give starbases to each other since one of the older betas of 1.1 and before that I saw it happening alot.

I misspoke ...they didn't give it to me, they gave it to another AI. I was trying to make the point that when they help with ships, they value the help much differently than when they value starbases. I don't think they changed how the AI values starbases, they just blocked them from going to the player. Either that or the method of valuing "gifts" is much different than what it's valued at for trade.

Are you sure the other AI didn't blow up their resource and take it or just take it after it was blown up by the owners' enemy? It could possibly have been a part of a trade that for some reason they accepted also.

Supposedly the AI's treat other AIs and the player the same way, and supposedly they don't give starbases to aid another in a war anymore.

I don't know if the above are always true, but I thought I'd ask if there was any other way they could have attained it since you can't really see the diplomatic screen and the transaction between them.

I misspoke ...they didn't give it to me, they gave it to another AI. I was trying to make the point that when they help with ships, they value the help much differently than when they value starbases. I don't think they changed how the AI values starbases, they just blocked them from going to the player. Either that or the method of valuing "gifts" is much different than what it's valued at for trade.

And I was saying that I used to see the AI:s give each other starbases all the time. I never see it now.

The problem I have with that is it means you HAVE to use military to get them and I thought the game was suppose to be able to be won by any number of means.

I don't mind them being expensive to buy from the AI but they shouldn't be impossible to buy as that limits your options.

The simple fact is the AI just won't trade resources or planets. Planets can be abused. Trade the AI your PQ 15 for his 10, but the 15 is in the middle of your empire and will return to you via influence. It's probably too difficult to get the AI to assess the value of trades like that, much less trades for mulitple planets so Stardock just said no planet trades.

Same for influence resources. You think it would be fair to trade one for one, but what if you really need influence more than you need a morale resources and can use it to win the game. Again, assessing this is probably beyond the AI, so again, Stardock just said no.

I agree if you do offer totally ridiculous trades it makes no sense - but then again, your ridiculous trade makes no sense either, and you wouldn't offer it you really thought the AIt would take either. So your offer is as bad as the AI not taking it - neither is realistic.

Since we wouldn't make these trades in real life, I'm fine with Stardock setting the AI not to make them, in order that the AI not be abused with planet/resource trades, hence being more competitive.

If they won't trade planets, then take the damn things off the trade list.

OTOH, I think there are cases to be made for planet trades, even 'ripoff' ones like you propose. If I offer an AI upwards of 40,000 and some techs, it IS worth it to lose the planet. The planet might take 100 turns to make that much money, and getting it all at once is a MAJOR boost. Obviously, planets with wonders etc (which should be noted in the trade screen) would be near impossible to purchase. Frankly, I've had planets that I *wish* the AI would offer to buy, because they're useless to me.

Also, assessing 'ripoff' trades should actually be pretty easy. The game already has the influence ration thingy going on, so it could determine if the planet was ringed with influence starbases and respond accordingly.