Expansion Wishes: Racial Pick, Border, ChokePoint, Terror Star, UP & Ethics

from GalCiv2 Forums
There are 5 gripes for GalCiv2, hopefully the following will implement in the Expansion:
A) All races feel and play almost the same, in long term
B) No choke point on map
C) No TerrorStars
D) Ethic & UP is good but not interesting enuf
E) UI does not show all information for decision-making, poor use of focus & lack of keyboard shortcut
I assume the AI will know how to utilize them and will act even smarter.

I've tried to limit my 'wish' to the essential. I avoid UI enhancement here.

A) Races can be differentiated more by:
Make a slider of 0/1/2/Random number of unique racial pick in beginning E.g.
- All hull give 10 sensor range
- Aquatic habitat: a PQ10 planet for you is a PQ4 for other race, vice versa
- Orbital habitat: colony builds only at the orbit of planet, all of them is regarded as PQ10; succeed in invading means colony destroyed
- Non-resource starbase has base move of 1 parsec/week
- Double all surveying bonus and can build survey module in the beginning
- Omniscient: see the whole map in real time
- 3 random advanced technology
- +20% PQ to all colonies
- All border technology researched
- UP counsel member: 30% chance to pick topic at each UP
- Religious: 1% chance per week, presented with 3 galaxy-wide random event, you pick 1 of them to happen (e.g. econ boom, PQ boom etc)
- Ignore all effect of Nebulas
- Hive mind: colony will never deflect, etc etc

B1) Map can have more choke point by using Border Technologies

The following 4 different new Border tech. can be researched after Diplomacy, in no particular order:
1) Economic Border
- Any civilian ships can go inside the border. Military ships cannot enter, unless war is declared
- if other race's military ships is within border is already in the border when Economic Border is enforced, they stay without penalty or war declaration
2) Federation Border
- If the race relationship is neutral or better, the civilian & military ships of that race can enter
- Any other military ships can only go in after war is declared
3) Restrictive Border
- Only civilian ships of friendly (or better) race can enter
4) Closed Border
- The only way to for any ship get into border is to declare war.
0) No Border
- any ship can enter, the original border system in v1.1, no research required

A slider is used for player to choose which kind of border s/he currently enforce.
- New pre-game option to set one default border status for all races
- Any ships of Team or alliance race can always get into your border.
- Freighter can get into any border, regardless of the border status or relation.

Definition:
i) Border & Passage right
- Border is defined by the race's influence
- If a starbase or planet of another race is located within the border, that other race has the right of passage for its Civilian & Military ships to that Sector, regardless of the border status or relationship.
ii) Civilian ships are defined as any unarmed ships & (un)armed surveying ships. Ships that contains freighter/constructor module no longer carry any weapon in their design. Everything else is military ship

B2) (one time, semi-, or permanent) Wormholes
- There can be 1 way or 2 way wormholes
- Really expensive stargate can (only) be built in Military starbase, act likes permanent 2 way worm hole for team-mates
- The larger the hull, the higher chance that it never gets out
- Only 1 fleet will get out of it per 4 weeks, in random sequence

B3) Nebulas
- 2 types, both occupies a grid square
i) non-passable
ii)OR those passable one will reduce 20%HP for staying there each week
- Minefields act like those passable Nebulas, can only be built by surveyors, costing 1 weeks' tax income each
- Minefield is semi-permanent, 1% chance of self destruct per week

C1) Terror Star
New Super Project that allows movement of Military starbase, which open up a New starbase Movement Module
Each Movement module increase speed by 1 parsec, each additional one is way more expensive than the proceeding one
Movable starbase produce huge influence, when travelling at other non-team race's border
Cause a double minus in diplomacy for that non-team race, if residing within other non-team race's border
Cause a minus in diplomacy to all good race
Evil race have new achievement that +25% HP for all movable starbase

i)A New module: Shipyard
- can only be built in Military starbase
- very expensive, e.g. equal to all previous 0.125 year of tax income.

ii)A New module: Manufacturing module
- have an effect of building 1 more Factory on the starbase (for building ships from shipyard)
- these factory are updated instantly to latest factory tech, without cost
- its total number of them is restricted by its Logistic level (or something like 2X of such)
- each module on the starbase can house 1000m troops, used for defense & invasion
- each extra module get exponentially more expensive, but it give also more HPs, eg. 5, 10, 20, 40, 80, 100, 120, etc.
- add 1 ship slot for forming a fleet in starbase, regardless of logistic ability

iii)A New Module: Obital Gun
- can only be built in Military starbase
- Attack any fleet under the influence area without retailation, once per week
- very expensive, e.g. equal to all previous 0.25 year of tax income.
- allow attack of colony by Mass Drivers / Core Disruption / Tidal Disruption, if such tech is known

iv)Starbase & Population
- Starbase can be conqured by enemy troopers pod, only regular military warefare is allowed
- When attacking a starbase, attacker can choose an attack type called Strategic Bombardment instead. The defending starbase itself will have Dbl attack & defense value. If defending starbase lost, all military enhancement is distroyed, including Orbital Gun.

v)Economy starbase
- can only be built on a planet that is not inhabitated
- avoid abuse of building so many of them around to booast planet economy

vi)Misc
- Only 1 constructor can build module on starbase per week, others will be queued automatically subsequent week
- Once Orbital Defence is researched, fleets in any starbase automatically form a fleet, limited by logistic level
- Team ships inside the Military starbase's ZOC always attack first

D1) UP
- Add the UP meeting tab permanently
- 2 week before UP, the agenda & other race's decision (if espionage is high enuf) is shown
- Allow trading of UP decision with other race

D2) Ethics
- Ethics decisions choices continue, even after Xeno Ethics is researched
- If your Ethic changed to one different from what you've chosen when Xeno Ethics is researched, there would be NO morale bonus in ALL morale resource and building, until you are back to original Ethic.
- Use of Mass Drivers / Core Disruption / Tidal Disruption, destroying a colony, breaking alliance will make race more evil
- Some UP resolution that you support and been passed will affect your ethical standing
- A good race starting a war with another good race will make its race more evil
- A good race starting a war with another evil race will make its race more good
- A evil race that starts an alliance with good/neutral race will make its race more good
- A good race that starts an alliance with neutral/evil will make its race more evil

That is all I want for an expansion (when AI is smart enuf to utilize every new feature). I do NOT think the following are necessary:
New campaign, new race, new gfx, new music a different espionage, enhanced tactical ship combat, space captain/hero, terraforming PQ0, capturing ship etc.

PBEM & simultaneous Multiplayer is very nice, however I personally do need it.

Of course, if some of those wishes show up in v1.2, I don't mind!
19,765 views 38 replies
Reply #1 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Hi,

One comment about the Border Techs. I don't think that can work so well. It limits the player way too much in not being able to move on the map which is not fun. Limitation is never a good thing. What we could have instead is a sysyem similar to Civilisation's system, where you could not bring your ships too close to inhabited systems of another civilisation. Unless you are at war or an ally. However with good engines, that is not a problem since you can hit on your enemy planet by starting a move far away.

However I think building choke points by having rules like "Do not enter in my star system with ships (unless frighter) unless you are at war or allied to me" might work. Limiting move on a large border I don't like as much. Being able to move you ships around the map is a must. It is part of the fun.

My 2 cents.
Reply #2 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Hi,

Another comment, this time about the Terror Star. I think it could be a very cool idea. And yes it must be expensive, and take a long time to build, and then expensive to maintain. Because otherwise it will imabalance the game too much.

What I don't agree with it is the Evil Races +25% HP. That definitely imbalances the game, since I believe the Terror Star will aready have a lot of HP. And 25% of a LOT is A LOT MORE, making it way to powerfull. What is important to understand is that it should be equally hard (or easy) to win games on Good and Evil. That setting will make it easier on Evil, which imbalances the game from that reason. So no, that bonus is bad.

Btw, I like almost all the other ideas. I am just trying to be constructive here .
Offworld Trading Company
Reply #3 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
A) Race differentiation- I'm all for a bit more variation in races, such as different planets being different quality for different races.

B) I'm all for more 'terrain' in space. It should still be reasonably open, but the odd Nebula dotted around would be nice. They could have effects like damaging ships inside, boosting the power of certain weapons, reducing sensor range or whatever.

Also, purely cosmetically, I'd prefer resources to be represented by Nebulae rather than mysterious floating geometric shapes in space.

I'm not sure on hard borders as you describe them- If you are referring to influence, it is often the case that a few of your planets end up in the 'borders' of another race. Are you expected to just leave them undefended? What I would like to see is for a diplomatic option 'Get your tanks off my lawn' or something similar, where if you have ships close to enemy planets the AI would ask you to remove them. If you refuse, THEN they should declare war.

Natural (permenant) and artificial Wormholes would be great.

C) I'm pretty sure that the 'Terror Star' is already on its way in the add-on (there is already a UP resolution about it)

I like the idea of shipyards on stations, but this could majorly affect the game balance (since high quality planets would become less important).

I don't like the orbital gun idea- the scales involved should not allow weapons fire between different squares. Military starbases are not weapons turrets.

I would like to see planetary guns though, which are built on the planet's surface (which is what sprang to mind when I read 'orbital gun'). There should be one for each weapon type (and upgrades as you go down the weapon tree) that causes damage to enemy ships that attack your ships in orbit around the planet. You can't destroy it from space, but it stops firing once all ships in orbit are destroyed (they were acting as 'spotters').

It would be nice to be able to capture starbases (and ships in fact), I'd support an idea that if there is a troop transport in a fleet, one of the opposition ships is automatically captured rather than destroyed (at random). The downside of fighting like this would obviously be that you would have to waste 5 logistic points on the transport, making victory harder.

D) I would love to know the UP resolutions in advance, and maybe even be able to put your own motions forward once in a while. A lot of my reservations about the UP would be removed if you got a chance to go to the negotiation screens just before the vote, to buy some Influence points from the other races.

Ethics: I would prefer other actions to be considered towards ethical ratings. For instance, declaring war on a good race is considered evil, and vice versa. Making an alliance is considered good. Information warfare should be considered as good (trying to win hearts and minds) while other military tactics are considered progressively more evil, with Conventional Warfare as Neutral.

I'd also like to have the negative effect of low military strength removed for good races. They should take it into account before declaring war, but they should never declare war just because your military is weak. If your relationship has been lowered for other reasons, such as ethical alignment or agressive use of influence starbases, then they should check to see if their military is stronger, and if so declare war. But the military strength shouldn't be a factor in itself except for evil and, perhaps to a slightly lesser extent, Neutral races.
Reply #4 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Yes, let's all turn GC2 into a bizarre hybrid of MoO2 and MoO3, with some stuff from other games thrown in!

While we're at it, let's throw in some RTS, FPS, fleet/ship level user-controllable tactics, multiplayer, BFG4000, minigames to solve to get bonuses, and magic.

Seriously, there are some decent ideas in this thread, but there are others which would completely change the game, and not into something good or unique, but into a bizarre genetic hybrid of a bunch of other games.
Reply #5 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
A) All races feel and play almost the same, in long term


are you sure that you are playing GalCiv2?

B) No choke point on map


Space is HUGE. it is impossible to have a closed border.
Reply #6 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Because your list is long and I agree with most of it, let me outline what I don't like:

--Scrap your entire ethics suggestions. Not sure of your age but there's no such thing as "good" and "evil", just the context. That means that your status of "good" and "evil" should be the perceptions of the other races. Stardock developers clearly understand this. Play Knights of the Old Republic for a great primer on existentialist philosophy. If I decide at some point in the game to wipe out an undeveloped aquatic society for a 45% research bonus, I will consider it regardless of the fact that I love God, King, empire and family. Let my population get a morale penalty in conjunction with that 45% and now being perceived as evil has real consequences.

The changes to the ethics system only need tweaking, not wholesale reform.

--Only two borders, economic and influence. The only "hard" borders should be the "territorial waters" of planets. While Stardock says planet borders end at the atmosphere, they should go a bit farther out. Not so much that legitimate transit is impeded but enough that military ships get a warning.

--Stable wormholes should be _extremely_ rare like Deep Space 9. When one race has it within their border, politics would become quite interesting and you'd see why I don't want hardshell ethics.

--Constructors are difficult enough to get rolling as is. It takes a LOT of planning, effort and money to get more than one constructor doing something at one spot in a week without hard restrictions. Your suggestion would kill some of the reward that better players feel when they reach this ability.

--Updating espionage is required. GC2 doesn't need to add another layer of complexity with agents but another slider for counter-intelligence would be nice.

Minefields are a very very very very very very good idea. I like stardock's position on space: it's big. However, there are sensitive areas that need higher levels of empire security and minefields are a cheap way of securing an area. Ask the United States.

I'd take hostages to force Stardock into fixing the last point raised by No118. It _is_ a game of conquest but starting next to the Yor shouldn't translate to a frustrating and immediate death.
Reply #7 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I like the idea of borders. It seems ridiculous now that 50 ships can just sit next to a planet. Like a previous person said however, the closed borders would limit mobility around the maps.

I think a better idea would be to have closed borders strickly around planets and stations. (This would be plausible as the planets have defense forces that would detect ships) There should be a money slider that can increase the radius of the border around a planet. So it would be possible to severely limit mobility in your influence, however it would cost a lot to actually do this. A plus of this system is that it would allow one to cutoff the passage of a particular area of space for strategic reasons, yet it wouldn't restrict the ENTIRE map.

Right now I feel the game lacks tactical strategy and this would improve it in my opinion.
Reply #8 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Orbital Gun - this has been talked in the Starbase threads. Distances are way to get. Your talking light years at the minium. Minefields are slightly more belivable because but space is huge. That would be vastly expensive.

Border control - again your think on earth terms. Your thinking that you can build a fence or something. That's not how space works. (Even 2 D space like Galciv2). Space is again huge. It would be like saying that the whole Pacific ocean belongs to the US and we want to build choke points in it.

Other games - MOO, MOO2, Space Empire 4 - had choke points built in because the only way to get from one star system to another is by a worm hole/hyperlane. Galciv 2 doesn't go that route. It has free form of building.
(Even take Star Trek as an example - flights could be anywhere. The only choke point was say Deep Space 9 at a worm hole or inside a solar system where you couldn't warp because of gravity)

I would rather it changed that we could tell the AI to remove ships from the our space if we don't like them.

Influence - influence doesn't mean you own an area. It just means you have more of a say in that area. Take our real world. The influence of the US (in general) is great. The Influence of Brazil isn't. Do we own alot more of a land mass than Brazil? Influence in the game isn't area of control but more area of cultural similarities.

I don't see a Terror star as a need ship. If you want a Death Star play Star Wars.

I do agree that races are similar. I would like to see ore race specific techs but it's not a deal breaker.
Reply #9 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I could imagine a stronger implementation of territorial control by making a limit of, say, between 1/3 and 1/2 the distance from planets/starbases/etc. to the life support limit. Between supply and that limit, ships cost as much to maintain as they do in the game currently. Between that limit and the life support limit, the cost of supplying ships ramps up. Perhaps have some sort of special ecosystem module (perhaps extremely large, to make warships that attempt to use the tech not be that useful?) that would reduce or remove this additional cost.

With something like this, you keep the current territorial limits to expansion fairly intact (a colony ship doesn't have to spend much time in the ramped-up cost area on its way to form a new colony), but dramatically increases the cost of extended military action far from a supporting planet or starbase.
Reply #10 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

The arena may not be 2-d, but you can still have "borders" based on enemy ship detection systems. If ships enter a region close to the planet then they will be detected and war will be declared.
Reply #11 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Military starbases are really defensive & coordinating units. I keep them between my planets. It's the influence bases that I'd like to see with a thruster module.
Reply #12 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
- Aquatic habitat: a PQ10 planet for you is a PQ4 for other race, vice versa


Problem with implementing that is, if you conquer this planet (via culture, or invasion, etc.) do you destroy a random amount of buildings? What about galactic wonders?

- Orbital habitat: colony builds only at the orbit of planet, all of them is regarded as PQ10; succeed in invading means colony destroyed


Way to strong if there are only a few good habitable planets. Also would this mean colonizing on PQ0 planets? If yes, very unbalancing.

- Double all surveying bonus and can build survey module in the beginning


Also unbalanced. The current 2500 Credits bonus in the beginning is unbalancing enough without the need of them being even stronger.

- Omniscient: see the whole map in real time


Unbalanced. Would destroy fog of war, no need for sensors, etc.

- +20% PQ to all colonies


Unbalanced. 2 more tiles on every PQ10 planet would be way too much.

- Hive mind: colony will never deflect,


Unbalanced. The current bonus some races are getting against defecting are strong enough. No defection at all would destroy the influence victory type.


Imho adding further racial picks at the beginning is good, but they should imho be integrated in the current bonus system and shouldn't be too strong to not to be unbalanced.


B1) Map can have more choke point by using Border Technologies


Imho not a good idea because...

- Border is defined by the race's influence


... some time into the game my influence cover the whole map or the influence of one of the other species does that. Also imho the possibility of flying everywhere in space, ie. in the game is quite fun and is the big differene between a space strategy game and a strategy game which plays on a planet.

It would imho also alter the game play too much.

C1) Terror Star
New Super Project that allows movement of Military starbase, which open up a New starbase Movement Module
Each Movement module increase speed by 1 parsec, each additional one is way more expensive than the proceeding one


Movements over 1 for Terror Stars are also unbalanced, way too fast. Reason: Terror stars are already unbalanced in the aspect that they are super weapons. Giving them a large movement would make defending against them near to impossible.

i)A New module: Shipyard
- can only be built in Military starbase


Not sure about that, but would lean to say nay to that. Imho planets should remain being the only place to produce ships for balancing and lore reasons. (i.e. only planets have the ability for the construction of such massive things as space ships, those suckers tend to cost hundreds of billions of credits.

iii)A New Module: Obital Gun
- can only be built in Military starbase
- Attack any fleet under the influence area without retailation, once per week
- very expensive, e.g. equal to all previous 0.25 year of tax income.
- allow attack of colony by Mass Drivers / Core Disruption / Tidal Disruption, if such tech is known


Also more against this then in approval of it. Problems in implementation into the game, especially, how much damage would they do? What do you mean of attacking colony by those strategies?

vi)Misc
- Only 1 constructor can build module on starbase per week, others will be queued automatically subsequent week


Strictly against it. It's currently imho annoying enough to build your starbases up, without the need of making building them taking even longer.

v)Starbase & Population
- Starbase can be conqured by enemy troopers pod, only regular military warefare is allowed


Not sure about that, would be a pretty large game alteration. Dunno if a good one or a bad one.

- Team ships inside the Military starbase's ZOC always attack first


Possibly too strong of a bonus, especially in the later game, when the attacker usually automatically wins because of the strong weapons involved.

D2) Ethics
- Ethics decisions choices continue, even after Xeno Ethics is researched
- If your Ethic changed to one different from what you've chosen when Xeno Ethics is researched, there would be NO morale bonus in ALL morale resource and building, until you are back to original Ethic.


This would be game breaking, since the loss of all morale bonuses from buildings would nearly destroy all your colonies with populations larger then 10 Billion people.

Giving a moral penalty on the base morale of, let's say, 20% would be strong enough. Imho the continuing (sp?) of moral choices would be imho nice, though.

Lot's of critic on my part, but don't take it personal, it just reflects my view on the game and how I would alter it, doesn't mean that I'm right of course.
Reply #13 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I agree on the Ethics issue, ethics is not a one time bought and paid for event... You cannot (or at least should not be able to) to "evil" deeds and then pay to be good, that is just ridiculous. However if you choice an ethical position you should be required to make choices that reflect that position, and thus make others buy into your declared belief system.
"America is great because America is Good. If America ceases to be good it will cease to be great." - Alexis De Tocqueville (author of Democracy in America)
is a statement of how not only Americans see themselves but how others view America (at least depending on what end of the American "Big Stick" you happen to be on) others buy into this because this is how America tries (and doesn't always succeed) to portray themselves to the world. A "good" aligned race in gc2 should be required to consistently make good choices (at least in public events) to keep other races believing in their ethical claims.

On other topics, I also agree that different races should have options not available to others. Ie organic tech, cybernetics etc... that allow them unique research branches making each race truly unique. Its always been one of my pet peeves that in 4x games the research tree is that same for xeno-racially differing groups -- could we honestly say that a race of sentient machines will research life support systems? Or at least life support as we know it?
Reply #14 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I have been thinking about about the issues, raised in this thread. I Like the idea of borders a lot. But they need to be much tighter than the cultural influence sphere currently used ingame. Different starbases would have different radius of control. Starbases and planets (possible fighter carriers) could have ships attached that would be dispatched to intercept intruders in thier sphere of influence.

Let us designate the new tighter spher as Military Zone of control. (MZOC)

I like the idea of starbases taking more time to build. I'm not sure how much time. perhaps a begining game option of 1-3 constructors a week. Or possible the number of modules a week being built dependant upon the number of constructos present at the location. This would perhaps look like the following.

Let us suppose that each constructor contributes .1/week module construction labor. A fleet of 50 constructors would assemble 5 modules in the first week, and then be a fleet of 45 and assemble 4 (.5) modules in week 2 and be a fleet of 40 + (1) (the last one permanantly fixed to the starbase till it is fully transformed. In this example a 12 module starbase being built by 50 constructors would take 3 weeks to build and deplete 12 of the constructors, who would then be a fleet of 38, that would take 4 weeks to build a second, and then a 26 construtor fleet that would take 6 weeks to build a 3rd 12 module starbase. Building rate Efficiency of the contructor modules could be a whole new string of technologies. Remember tha goal here should be that there would be a couple weeks responce time before a fully formed terrorstar appears over planet Alsoran. perhaps values .05 .1 .15 and .2 per constructor unit with constructor units having a logistics value of 1 would be appropriate, these construction rate techs should be spaced out in other tech trees perhaps .... .05 comes with constructors. an additional +.05 might come with anti missle drones II another +.05 would come from the trade good of nanobots? (the +25% repair rate trade good)
Contruction of a star base in another players MZOC should be an act of war. As should building a military starbase that gives your ships bonuses inside another players MZOC

During construction the starbase should have only a fraction of it's completed modules online (perhaps the oldest 1/3). Retrofitting/upgrading fully operational starbases should be much slower. Taking the old starbase offline for 3x the amount of construction time it would have taken when new (construction was optomized for the original design)

To implement this type of strategy, I would forsee the following game changes as being useful, and relatively easily encoded.
1> Constructors have a new lower logistics value (logistics should be renamed to suggest mor of a force coordination rather than a supply role IMO) and can't be armed. (It is much easier to cordinate a large construction crew than an army in battle while your being shot at)
2> Constructor only fleets can be given a build starbase mission
2a> mission includes the Base designe with all modules (maximum mods = the constructors in the fleet) built in order of user selection.
2b> mission includes location assignment. Location assignment would be display using a MZOC map displaying the MZOC of the starbase if place there, to allow intelligent placement of space pickets. MZOC displayed based on completed starbase design component list.
3> implementation of military sphere of control and related maps.
4> Fighter Bay Component on Starbases to allow permant stationing of Tiny ships on the starbase that would auto deploy to intercept hostile intruders in ZOC, and deploy with a pop up box for nuetral intruding war ships, with
4A> Escort from territory
4B> destroy
4C> ignore
5> military fleets should be able to be assigned escort/guard duties to travel on top of constructor fleet (assuming they match or exceed the speed of the constructors) and defend it. This mission could also be used with trade ships, other fleets, etc. To attack the guarded fleet you must first defeat the defenders ... (stealth may by pass for a round of killing/fighting escorted fleet before the escorts engage).
6> fake frieghteors armed with fighers (inside immitation cargo pods) that can be put in the trade routs and only attack pirates.

Economic Starbases should be limited to one per solor system and only boost that solor system. Consolidating planets in the system into one economy. Sliding bars should allocate system resources to individual plnets. This will allow the developed planet to rapidly build the neighboring planets. The economic starbase itself should have upto 5 planet slot modules. each taking the space of .. hmm 5-10 starbase modules. almost anything that could be built on a planet could be in one of these modules. Economic starbases are assumed to harvest raw materials from baren planets space debris.

"Peaceful Starbases" should have more shielding options. Personally I'd prefer them having fewer guns and instead relying on assigned ships and fighters for defence.


"Fighters"
There should have a small sublight engine option allowing combat only in support of a carrier/base/world with a fighter module in battle. These fighers would have more space for weapons and armor. but suffer from severe range limits (no independant movement; possible exception military bases with movement assist). This would allow the use of a fighter screen that must be destroyed/penetrated before the base/ship/world. The fighters should be transportable in a "frieghter" in higher numbers when broken down to a non operational state. A fighter should take up perhaps 1/2 of its hull capacity in a deployedable state on a hull design 2+ size categories larger. Carried on a frieghter in an unusable state capacity should be 1/5. Fighters are cheap to mass produce, Planets should be able to build multiple ships a turn if they have the war manufacturing capacity. Maintaining alert fighters is expensive... Fighters in deployed status instead of crated should have higher than normal upkeep cost.

Stealth capabilities on ship to allow first x round(s) of combat before fighters deploy/lock on from defender based on scanner vs stealth rating.


I like starbases, but throwing 30-60 mod starbases fully developed in a single turn has too an huge impact. There should be onsite construction time to allow possible "preemptive" strikes.

Just some ideas I'd like to see.

As far as content from other games.. this is a relatively well plowed field. the core concepts are derived from at least the game "reach for the stars" in the early 1980's on the apple, if not before.

I actually went looking for "the new reach for the stars game" when i found and bought this game. I do that once every 5-10 years.
Reply #15 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
B) No choke point on map

I certainly don't want choke points. Chokepoints in space just seems horribly unrealistic and ugly both aesthetically and from a game design prespective. I like having the open area for manuevering ships. I've always thought that the stupid starlanes that are in some other games, were there because the game designers weren't willing, or able to make a decent AI. They destroy what is good about a space game, and that's SPACE.
Reply #16 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
#3 by No118
Ethics: I would prefer other actions to be considered towards ethical ratings. For instance, declaring war on a good race is considered evil, and vice versa. Making an alliance is considered good. Information warfare should be considered as good (trying to win hearts and minds) while other military tactics are considered progressively more evil, with Conventional Warfare as Neutral.

I'd also like to have the negative effect of low military strength removed for good races. They should take it into account before declaring war, but they should never declare war just because your military is weak. If your relationship has been lowered for other reasons, such as ethical alignment or agressive use of influence starbases, then they should check to see if their military is stronger, and if so declare war. But the military strength shouldn't be a factor in itself except for evil and, perhaps to a slightly lesser extent, Neutral races.

--------------------------------------------------

#6 by Wheeloffire
--Scrap your entire ethics suggestions. Not sure of your age but there's no such thing as "good" and "evil", just the context. That means that your status of "good" and "evil" should be the perceptions of the other races. Stardock developers clearly understand this. Play Knights of the Old Republic for a great primer on existentialist philosophy. If I decide at some point in the game to wipe out an undeveloped aquatic society for a 45% research bonus, I will consider it regardless of the fact that I love God, King, empire and family. Let my population get a morale penalty in conjunction with that 45% and now being perceived as evil has real consequences.

The changes to the ethics system only need tweaking, not wholesale reform.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Since the Game gives bonus values based on civilization alignment... Then in my opinion, the ethics allignment should be affected by the choices made throughout the game. The bonus values should activate occur after the research, but there should be no instant buy off of mis deeds. You are judged by your actions and the company you keep. Alliance with a Species of differing alignments should have an effect of moving both alignments toward the other. One way to implement this would be to have point seperate point values for good, nuetral, and evil actions. When you chose an action you get points in the appropriate category. Alignment could then be calculated with a formula something like alignmanet = (good - evil) / (x + nuetral) The Value X could be (good+evil+nuetral)/10 + C. The C constant would prevent instant recognition as a saint or devil. Good bonuses are influence. nuetral are trade. Evil are tactics and possibly technologys available. Thus Alignment scales would be from +10 to -10 with coresponding bonuses through the spectrum. Three bonus categories seems a bit too tight, I would think 7 would be more appropriate, 2 good - 3 nuetral - 2 evil.

Spin doctors could be used to propagandize actions to sway numbers to an extent (small). Perhaps Lessoning your percieved good and nuetral choices, and maximizing your evil bonuses, because you really want the technology that allows you to transplant living brains into your ships weaponry for targeting bonuses
Reply #17 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I think I need more elaboration:

What I've proposed is, for colony that is Deep inside the area you've the most influence, you have most control on how other ships can get there. For border colonies that enemy can still do a sneak attack, by parking right outside your influence (border). If other race do not agree with your border policy, that means war. You can always go inside others' border with your mighty battleships next to others homeworld, but that will usually mean war. So in a way this is not a limitation abt where you roam.

This border system basically says 'I have the say on how I want ships travel in this space, if you don't respect what I want, let's fight!' This is the concept. The border system I have proposed also give you fine-grained control abt how you want civilian ships like contructors/colonly trespasses the space you have most influence. The distinction of Civilian & Military ships also allows you to build starbase/colony to extend your range at others' turf IF you wish AND IF their Border Policy allows.

quote: VladTheImpaler
"Do not enter in my star system with ships (unless freighter) unless you are at war or allied to me" might work

VladTheImpaler: I've already suggested this with "4) Closed Border"
Also, abt the 25%HP, Shipyard on Starbase, Orbit Gun is just a suggestion. I definitely will not know how balance should be acheived, but Developer will know by playtesting it. Wishes are basically some kind of suggestion of feature wanted, but not balance suggestion.

quote: No118
I'd also like to have the negative effect of low military strength removed for good races.

No118: I disagree, I found the current system is good. Having overall weak military strength is provocative for being attacked, regardless your ethics. Every race need certain level of self defence. It probably is more a 'balance' problem on how good the AI access your military strength.

quote: No118
What I would like to see is for a diplomatic option 'Get your tanks off my lawn' or something similar, where if you have ships close to enemy planets the AI would ask you to remove them

I believe the proposed border tech is close to what you want above, but more flexible.

Mistoffeles: I just want a 4X game that provide most fun, I don't care if it is a bastard or not!

MonkeyLogic: All I say is, sure every AI race is different, but they are not that different compared to MOO2, esp. at late game. There should always be uniqueness abt a race that cannot be 'researched' or 'build' AND the AI know how to maximize those 'uniqueness'

Wheeloffire: Ethics should have a bigger effect on the actions/decision you've made in the game. It would be more fun.

'Good' and 'Evil' is an umbrella term that describe races that share similar position of the 'Ethic' spectrum. There should be some standard of what is evil, e.g. needless killing, torture of the weak or innocent. Good race goes into war too, but they tends/tries/pretends to more 'human' when they kill.

jbauer2485: I like your idea of "using money slider to control border size" too. However, I still prefer the use of 'influence' b/c influence is more 'fun' to play with.

Spaceno93: probably my use of term 'choke point' is somewhat misleading. Border is more like a diplomatic policy.

quote: influence doesn't mean you own an area. It just means you have more of a say in that area.

Yeah... I meant I should have more say on how 'other' ships enter my area.

Wheeloffire: I agree that influence SB should be allowed to move too.

Vandenburg:
Aquatic habitat: yes, let random building be destroyed if the new PQ is smaller.

The point with racial pick is, to make a race play really differently. As I said I don't know whether my suggestion is balanced or not now. It'd depend on how good it'd be balanced later if there will be expansion.

quote: Strictly against it. It's currently imho annoying enough to build your starbases up, without the need of making building them taking even longer.

It is annoying now because of Other UI reasons. My suggestion is to avoid building a powerful TerrorStar/Starbase in next week with 40 constructors next to your homeworld.

Rastagnon:
Quote: Starbases and planets (possible fighter carriers) could have ships attached that would be dispatched to intercept intruders in thier sphere of influence.

Well, does that means war? I see that your suggestion is similar to mine, if I disallow others' military ship to get into my border. If they insist in getting in, it's war time and I can always dispatch to intercept.

BladeVenom: My use of term 'chokepoint' is not abt aesthetic; it is more of a description of new diplomacy technologies related to how border should be controlled. Other stuff like Nebulas & Wormhole do exist in space and they will form 'chokepoint' Naturally b/c of their function.
Reply #18 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
#17 by Climber

Rastagnon:
Quote: Starbases and planets (possible fighter carriers) could have ships attached that would be dispatched to intercept intruders in thier sphere of influence.

Well, does that means war? I see that your suggestion is similar to mine, if I disallow others' military ship to get into my border. If they insist in getting in, it's war time and I can always dispatch to intercept.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I described a much smaller military zone of control. (MZOC)

if at war with enemy already and another player enters your MZOC ALERT fighters auto dispatch. if not currently at war ... popup box with three options. Consider this the equivalent of the Combat Air patrol over an Aircraft carrier, and a pair of planes sitting on deck with pilots ready to launch.

I also said Alert responce wings have higher maintenance costs.

if not at war, alert wing gives 3 options.

Escort from area
attack
ignore


My message was lengthy and the later elements were built upon the previous ones. Keeping MZOC tight around the places responce fighters are kept (tighter than cultural influence.

Even with my ideas. implementing a really large impervious border would be time consuming and expensive. there would be tech research battles for stealth vs sensor tech. and the border realy isn't impervious... Consider the airspace over the US. itty bitty little smuggler planes penetrate it with drugs... but we think that major military sorties from mexico or cuba would be intercepted. before they got very far. Haven't seen this tested though recently.

or consider pacific ocean. US sphere of influence cover almost all of it. Military ZOC is much smaller area centering around bases, and Air craft carriers. Not exactly a small area in itself, but covering significant area in immeadiate vicinity of the cariiers and bases. Strategicly positioned, these cut off direct routes and force circuitous attack strategies, unless you are willing to fight the forces in between your home and you destination.


If your dealing with territorial waters, you have the right to "say" anything you want. You can only enforce based on your might. Example Sadam hussain. He could say, no foriegn aircraft over bagdad ... worked for the iran - iraq war. Didn't work vs the stealth, tech, and assembled might of the gulf war. you can intercept and try to bluff, but then you might be shot down. at best you can have violation be an act of war. No free pass to eject out of your inner systems if you have left them weak.
Reply #19 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
a few ideas are stupid or over the top, many ideas are very good. borders, nebulae (yes, and replace the damn geometric resources by coloured nebulae!!).. and let me add carrier modules to transport tiny ships that dont add to fleet logistics...

What I would like to see is for a diplomatic option 'Get your tanks off my lawn' or something similar, where if you have ships close to enemy planets the AI would ask you to remove them. If you refuse, THEN they should declare war.

oh yes...
Reply #20 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Here's a few ideas I would really like to see in addition to the many others out there. These ideas come from games similar to this one.

1. I would really like to see more use of 3d technology. I would really like to see my ship designs landing on new planets, and such. Just a general overal increase in the use of in game movies. But do put in options to skip these movies for those who get bored of them, and those with older computers. I just really want to get to see more of my ships in action.

2. Animate those Portraits of the different races. That's one little enjoyable feature of the Civ games. I like watching Catherine the great slap me on the face when she's really annoyed at one of my suggestions. But again also make it so this feature can be turned off.

3. Beef up the political system. I have in mind a mix of what you find in the board game Twilight Imperium, and Civ 4. Make the galactic counsel meet more often, or even add an option to increase how often it's called. Possibly add a chair person. And then at each meating there can be a list of a few topics to be picked from to be voted on. I would really like to see political decisions make some significant changes in the balance of power.

Example: My first time of playing GalCiv2 One of the meetings early on in the game brought up a votes where races would be required to share a number of unique technologies. I was able to swing the vote to where each race was forced to contribute 3 such techs. I loved the sudden flood of new techs I got from that it really brought me up to par in some areas I was behind everyone else in.


Example 2: During mid game a vote came up to block other races from exploring Anomilies inside your territory. The problem being that all the anomilies in the game had already been explored. What a lame meeting.


I'm not trying to say all decisions have to have a major effect. I have never since in any game I've played since encounted such a game altering cool vote. All meetings I've seen since then in any game have only had insignificant changes to be made so much to the point that I started to find the meetings more of an annoyance, and just a simple screen to see where my population was compared to everyone else. In late game sometimes I even decide to just pull out of the counsel especially when I can see that I pretty much dominate all around anyways. At least being able to select what you vote on would make it more interesting, and possibly bring around more seriously game affecting decisions.

4. I would also be cool when the sessions come up to have a chance to barter with the delegates to get your way in the vote or maybe even get some offers or favors from other races. Of course don't make this a really complicated. Mostly I want to be able to get an idea how a vote may turn out, or be able to offer a technology, or some cash to get a nation that has little to benifit from the vote to maybe side with me..

5. Also make another option where anomilies can appear later on in the game. My experience so far with this game has been that by the time I get to where I can build ships with the exploration pod for anomolies there's none left. Maybe I'm just too new to this game.
Reply #21 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Let us suppose that each constructor contributes .1/week module construction labor. A fleet of 50 constructors would assemble 5 modules in the first week, and then be a fleet of 45 and assemble 4 (.5) modules in week 2 and be a fleet of 40 + (1) (the last one permanantly fixed to the starbase till it is fully transformed. In this example a 12 module starbase being built by 50 constructors would take 3 weeks to build and deplete 12 of the constructors, who would then be a fleet of 38, that would take 4 weeks to build a second, and then a 26 construtor fleet that would take 6 weeks to build a 3rd 12 module starbase. Building rate Efficiency of the contructor modules could be a whole new string of technologies. Remember tha goal here should be that there would be a couple weeks responce time before a fully formed terrorstar appears over planet Alsoran. perhaps values .05 .1 .15 and .2 per constructor unit with constructor units having a logistics value of 1 would be appropriate, these construction rate techs should be spaced out in other tech trees perhaps .... .05 comes with constructors. an additional +.05 might come with anti missle drones II another +.05 would come from the trade good of nanobots? (the +25% repair rate trade good)
Contruction of a star base in another players MZOC should be an act of war. As should building a military starbase that gives your ships bonuses inside another players MZOC

During construction the starbase should have only a fraction of it's completed modules online (perhaps the oldest 1/3). Retrofitting/upgrading fully operational starbases should be much slower. Taking the old starbase offline for 3x the amount of construction time it would have taken when new (construction was optomized for the original design)

To implement this type of strategy, I would forsee the following game changes as being useful, and relatively easily encoded.
1> Constructors have a new lower logistics value (logistics should be renamed to suggest mor of a force coordination rather than a supply role IMO) and can't be armed. (It is much easier to cordinate a large construction crew than an army in battle while your being shot at)
2> Constructor only fleets can be given a build starbase mission
2a> mission includes the Base designe with all modules (maximum mods = the constructors in the fleet) built in order of user selection.
2b> mission includes location assignment. Location assignment would be display using a MZOC map displaying the MZOC of the starbase if place there, to allow intelligent placement of space pickets. MZOC displayed based on completed starbase design component list.
3> implementation of military sphere of control and related maps.
4> Fighter Bay Component on Starbases to allow permant stationing of Tiny ships on the starbase that would auto deploy to intercept hostile intruders in ZOC, and deploy with a pop up box for nuetral intruding war ships, with
4A> Escort from territory
4B> destroy
4C> ignore
5> military fleets should be able to be assigned escort/guard duties to travel on top of constructor fleet (assuming they match or exceed the speed of the constructors) and defend it. This mission could also be used with trade ships, other fleets, etc. To attack the guarded fleet you must first defeat the defenders ... (stealth may by pass for a round of killing/fighting escorted fleet before the escorts engage).
6> fake frieghteors armed with fighers (inside immitation cargo pods) that can be put in the trade routs and only attack pirates.

Economic Starbases should be limited to one per solor system and only boost that solor system. Consolidating planets in the system into one economy. Sliding bars should allocate system resources to individual plnets. This will allow the developed planet to rapidly build the neighboring planets. The economic starbase itself should have upto 5 planet slot modules. each taking the space of .. hmm 5-10 starbase modules. almost anything that could be built on a planet could be in one of these modules. Economic starbases are assumed to harvest raw materials from baren planets space debris.

"Peaceful Starbases" should have more shielding options. Personally I'd prefer them having fewer guns and instead relying on assigned ships and fighters for defence.


"Fighters"
There should have a small sublight engine option allowing combat only in support of a carrier/base/world with a fighter module in battle. These fighers would have more space for weapons and armor. but suffer from severe range limits (no independant movement; possible exception military bases with movement assist). This would allow the use of a fighter screen that must be destroyed/penetrated before the base/ship/world. The fighters should be transportable in a "frieghter" in higher numbers when broken down to a non operational state. A fighter should take up perhaps 1/2 of its hull capacity in a deployedable state on a hull design 2+ size categories larger. Carried on a frieghter in an unusable state capacity should be 1/5. Fighters are cheap to mass produce, Planets should be able to build multiple ships a turn if they have the war manufacturing capacity. Maintaining alert fighters is expensive... Fighters in deployed status instead of crated should have higher than normal upkeep cost.

Stealth capabilities on ship to allow first x round(s) of combat before fighters deploy/lock on from defender based on scanner vs stealth rating.


I like starbases, but throwing 30-60 mod starbases fully developed in a single turn has too an huge impact. There should be onsite construction time to allow possible "preemptive" strikes.

Just some ideas I'd like to see.


I like this idea ALOT. I also find the thought of a huge trillion doller space station housing millions of people being built in one week kind of rediculus. The way you broke it down works very well without hurting the games core rules. Your stealth ideas are very interesting but ultimatly I could do without them in favor of other things but I wouldnt object seeing them in. I dont know quite what else to say other then stardock should look at some of these and at least say weither or not some of these ideas are actualy viable.
Reply #22 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
A lot of interesting ideas here. I'll just talk about one-- borders.

I really don't see how you can have impassable borders in an immense 3-D space. Chokepoints are usually caused by the inability of a unit/supply route to negotiate the terrain. Space ships should be able to go wherever they phyiscally can. If the "locals" don't like your there, they can tell you about it. Then, you decide if moving there is worth any risks. The borders are in your mind, not in actual space.
Reply #23 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I see alot of peoples arguments against borders being that if you can go there, you should be able to. That argument doesnt work when your speaking of militarily and political fronts. I can go to a military base or any other 'off limits' zone but I dont, yes because im lazy, but more importantly because powers greater then I say not to go there or there will be reprocusions/punishments.

If we as a political and military force actualy did go into space you bet your bum there will be 'zones' you could and could not go into regardless of how vast space is. Political powers dont like it when any one can go any where. While having the influence range be the off limit zone is way to big I do agree that there should be a small zone, that you could expand with enough money, that no ship (except freighters) can go into and if you do it is declared as a act of war. Immagine in the cold war a russian tank just ran through a US embasy and just stoped out side the doors. You think they would go to war? or at least have some very huge negative political sanctions.

I know stardocks reason for not putting something like this in is because they wanted to allow multiple races to inhabit different planets in the same system. Personaly I could have done without that however to get around this I would assume a colony ship would be considered a civilian ship and would have the same rights as a freighter meaning diplomatic immunity. Only military ships and constructors would get the shun. I can settle for this even though I hate when another races colony ship zooms past my territory because I know its going to make a nice little hole in my space when I expand there too around that colony.

On a off topic question some one may be able to answer. When the UP gathers to decide who gets a new habitable world how the heck can you tell where the world is? I won it one time and had no idea where it was. Its been buggin me
Reply #24 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
mine fields and borders. i agree with 100%. sorry i skiped the stuff about starbases but ive seen Star Wars and the deathstar explode ...... twice

anyhow to my mind i have to agree 100% samuria. thats pretty much my fealings about boards all in a nut shell. i dont want to controll 1/4 of the map unless i actualy OWN 1/4 of the map. id be happy with just controling the sectors around my planets.

there is allways a resoultion that comes up talking about both colonys and star bases in sectors "outyside of my control' and ive yet to establish how the game defines (or even if it does) this space. what do i control? do i control based on the influence border? do i control by owning the most planets in a sector? do i control by having the most population in a sector with 2 planets owned by 2 races? what of sectors with no planets? who controls them in referance to the starbase resoultion? am i charged for the starbase even though there are no planets there and thus no one actualy 'controls' it?

i say simple fix, if you have the most population in a sector then you control it. that could be taken care of and add a new need for farming improvments. and actualy make those tripple food tiles really worth something and make you need to choose between dragin your over all moral down due to over crouding because you need to control the sector since the enemy has 2 planets and you only one. or giving up sector control to keep your over all moral higher.

as for mine fields i love the idea, i allready make a bunch of crap ships, just as a picket fence to keep constructors out, and it has the plus side of adding to my military might even though they dont actualy amount to anything.

i just want some way or combination of ways to control MY space. i want to have the abilit to warn the AI get out or fight, and i want an actual psyical option (mine fields or planetary zones of control) that i can remove the trash w/o having to decalre a war i will only end the next turn.

i dont care HOW big space is, my section of it is MINE. as far as i can reach via guns or sensors is MY space. as long as im the big dog in the yard then i want the tools to control the yard. that doesnt mean limiting the other dogs in the whole city. i just want my front yard secure.
Reply #25 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
JazzeroKi: your 1) and 2) are nice (I played Civ4 too) but I think since GalCiv is not a big-budget game, eye-candy should be a low priority, imho.

at each UP meeting there can be a list of a few topics to be picked from to be voted on

JazzeroKi: I've thought of that idea, but it'd be pretty hard for AI to determine which Topic will be beneficial to them. So, in the end, only player benefit from this New feature. Therefore I regard this is fun, but not fair to AI.

JazzeroKi: I've also suggested at the 1st post, as your 4)

WanderingSamuria: You have once again explain why the border system will work & benefit the game. Thanks! The only difference is that I still think a bigger border (as defined by influence) is a good for strategy b/c no one has to take it for grated wrt "right of passage" Bigger border also means easier to defend it

My border idea is just a way to let AI & Player control "right of passage" for area you have most influence.

I think I like the idea that links Money with border. So how about having a "border spending slider" that ranges from 0-100%? If you push your border spending to 100%, your border (as affected by your chosen border technology) will be the same as the one indicated by your Influence area. That essentially means you need to spend $ if you want to maintain your border. However, this might make the system unnecessary complex, which I might not like

stardocks reason for not putting something like this in is because they wanted to allow multiple races to inhabit different planets in the same system

I had thought of this already, that's why I said

If a starbase or planet of another race is located within the border, that other race has the right of passage for its Civilian & Military ships to that Sector, regardless of the border status or relationship.

AND you can always make sure colony ship is unarmed, so they'd travel into other race border (without declaring war), as long as it is not a "4) Close Border".

However if you really wants to prevent civilian ship to sneak up your (yet-to-occupied) resource/planet, you'd have to research & then use the "4) Close Border"