Forgot to type this in my last post (#47) and forum won't let me edit it righ now,

please look up a yellow page and find the nearest location for some humor transfusion.
you guys really need it.

I doubt any of you who criticized me have University degrees or work experience in the domain, so pipe down.

So... I guess all my PhD studies are junk...

(as in not intended by the script)?

Exactly. The vocabulary "gaffs" in GC2 are intended. So they're ok?

Watch any movie . . . does anybody stutter or misspeak accidentally (as in not intended by the script)? It would be more realistic if they did, as none of us go a day without butchering one word or another. However, in a movie these everyday mistakes would distract us from the real substance being presented.

How would it distract people from the real substance (if any)? “Perfection” is actually the biggest distraction. Imaging a street drug dealer speaks in perfect King ’s English only… If everyone in the movie is perfect looking, perfect speaking, perfect everything… How could a point get across when no one can relate to it at all?

By the way, is there substance in 99.9% of today’s movies?

As for the presentation in this particular game it's really a subjective matter.

Well... Galciv2 is a space alien game. Do all alien speak english? No, and it is presented as such.
So... what's the problem?

There are spelling errors and such in the game. Why don't you want these to be fixed?
Really, I have no clue why some people like the typos so much, so please enlighten me.

Look at this thread: https://forums.galciv2.com/?ForumID=274&AID=114845
A Stardockian fixes typos. So it seems that at least not all of them love the "faulty translator" as much as you do.

"Rai and Jiri at Lungha. Rai of Luwani, Luwani under two moons. Jiri, of Ubaya. Ubaya of crossed roads, at Lungha. Lungha, her skies grey"

So it seems that at least not all of them love the "faulty translator" as much as you do

We don't "love" it, we just don't CARE.

"Khidir beneath Momouteh"

As clueless as you are to our lack of interest, we are just as clueless to your bull headed pursuit of textual perfection. Whether it's a movie, book, or any other form of entertainment, there usually comes a point when the "audience" is "asked" for a certain amount of suspension of disbelief. At that point the audience is also asked to engage their imagination.

"Kalimash at Baha"

Having done some work with languages in the past, I am able to look at the messages (poor spelling and grammar) and imagine the universal translator is able to translate enough for communication, but doesn't quite get the grammar, or spelling correct. I even found the quirky syntax humorous and went on with the game.

"Sokath, his eyes uncovered"

If you really think about it, within an interstellar setting as long as there's accurate communication (ie: no, "you may leave in peace" vs "you may leave in pieces") then perfect syntax really doesn't matter.

That's why my early post mentioned just accepting the game as a game.

"Callimas at Bahar."

Quotes courtesy of Wikipedia: Link

Grammar or spelling errors, included on purpose, can submit an authentic, often humouric feeling. Even today I still remember that one text line from the very old Nintendo NES Game´s manual of Zelda1: "was dies ? we bin ich ?"

Absolute precision in any case is not possible, unless you are a machine - however, you should try to do your best to be accurate, unless you can obviously present grammar/spelling errors on purpose, on the right occasion . I don´t want to mention the unwanted (mis)interpretations of your personality in real life - for example if you´re on job search. But that´s another point. Don´t get me wrong - I´m neither a grammar wiz, nor some psychological expert. As a non-native english speaker I even need a long time to create these few lines to make you know what I mean. But I realize that especially the younger people do not know how to create an almost error-free letter without using Microsoft Word.

What the heck is a "grammar natzi" ? Sounds anxious

How would it distract people from the real substance (if any)? “Perfection” is actually the biggest distraction. Imaging a street drug dealer speaks in perfect King ’s English only… If everyone in the movie is perfect looking, perfect speaking, perfect everything… How could a point get across when no one can relate to it at all?

I think you've missed my point. No I don't want to see any drug dealer speaking like an orator in a movie . . . that would make no sense. That's a very valid case where poor speaking not only acceptable but also appropriate. However, you won't hear him stuttering, or using an excessive number of "um"s, or starting to say something but then changing his mind. These are the sorts of mistakes we all make many times every day, but in the context of a movie including them really doesn't add extra realism to the scene. That's what I was trying to get at anyway . . .

I know some people have made the case that the spoken lines are intentionally "bad" to reflect the character of the speakers. The idea of a crummy universal translator is interesting, as literal translations between certain languages are very very awkward ("all your base"). Still, I thought that sort of thing was already well captured in the way you phrase negotiations with other nations. After all, my leader probably isn't really saying "You're gonna wet yourself when you see this offer" when he's trying to trade. This is all well and good. (Actually that scene from one of the Monty Python movies comes to mind . . . the one with the maliciously incorrect English-Hungarian? dictionary) However, I personally don't find that a few random misspellings and the occasional run-on sentence contribute to the effect (although I admit it's a subjective matter), and I also doubt that they were intentional.

Still, I agree that we're talking about really minor issues here. When I originally saw this thread I posted in it because I wanted to help the game. Stardock has shown an interest in implementing what changes we want, so I just wanted to help demonstrate that there is some interest in this particular area. I've never before seen a game whose designers are so willing to let the community have a hand in its development. Since Frogboy poked his head in here a while ago it's clear that Stardock has heard our suggestion. It really doesn't matter to me whether they decide to do it or not . . . they've done plenty as it is already (the 1.1 changelog is insane), and I think we can all agree that the game is excellent as it is.

I'm done bitchin now. Really.

Francophonie's country regroup +/- 50 country, and you actually can speak with people using french in 53 country.

It's one of the four official langage at the U.N., and etc.


Only stupid american retards speak that way about french, like they speak about most of others cultures.

I'm french and I live in Quebec, I'm your neighbour and most of americans I've speaked with are ignorants. Then keep blaming other culture when your own people know nothing.

This is really sad.

I know my english is bad so dont insult me about that

Only stupid american retards speak that way about french, like they speak about most of others cultures.

During my expoits abroad this is the very reason I left the groups and went out on my own. One of the most memorable evenings in 4 years of military service was sitting at a bar in Marseille, drinking beer after beer and discussing politics using my poor French and the locals using their poor English. Of course, it was during the Europe Cup and France was doing well, so that made everyone even happier.

- a family inviting me to tea in Anatalya, Turkey ranks up there fairly high as well...and there was no "common" language then.

Traveling to other countries and getting crap because of the sheer arrogance of other Americans does make a lasting impression.

For those who would respond that the OP was about game material and not about real-world issues, the tone of the continuing discussion implies the real world issues because it is the exact same arrogance people in other countries experience from their American "guests."

I understand what you mean skelton42.

It may be a kind of vicious circle. (if that word exist)

I know many americans are nice people and are not "ignorants" as I stated.

By the way, I like to think the majority of americans are not like that.

But what I have see here... I mean Montreal is a tourism center and a multicultural ones...

Except for the fuck**** tamils who use knifes to cut people hand and arm, to control some kinds of market, (they are freaking crazy !!) most of other culture have no problem here and appreciate Quebec as a french speaking province (I would say country for my part)

The only people who seem to have a problem with that are americans. (alberta people too sometimes !!)
Most of them who came in Quebec for the first time, just discovered that their neighbour is a totally french speaking province, and it seem they cant tolerate it.

I've seen many times some americans insulting people in the street or being violent for no reason. Where I worked last year, at a tourism place, most (9/10) of tourists who caused me problem were americans. It goes from insults to violent acts against our culture.

You wont see such kind of behaviour with most of other civilized cultures.

Well, I know americans are good people for most of them.

Long live to Vermont !!!

We don't "love" it, we just don't CARE.

No, if you didn't care, you wouldn't post in this thread at all. So you obviously do care and you obviously like the typos, otherwise why would you try to see to it that they stay in the game?
Sure, there are people who actually don't care but they don't post here and there are also those who believe that Earth is going under if they don't continously defend Stardock but my guess is that it looks very unprofessional to most people with a normal grasp of the english language.
The typos are so incredible easy to fix too, just load the text to a program with spellcheck and go through it. There is no point to me doing it myself since I play Metaverse. The grammar is harder to correct but it can be done too, if only someone at Stardock would bother to read through all the text.

if you didn't care, you wouldn't post in this thread at all.

Did you even read the post? Did the presence of those specific quotes get completely ignored by you?

The game text doesn't matter, I'm not going to rant about how I demand poor syntax. I will try and explain my position to the grammar Nazis, I will try and talk some sense into them, but in the end I'm going to play the game reguardless of the text messages.

Honestly, I thought post #55 was well thought out. If you managed to read beyond the third line, I'd be more than happy to discuss with you.

Actually no, I didn't read your whole post. I saw a lot of gibberish quotes which made me ignore most of it.
I have read it through now but I didn't find anything else of interest to comment.

And since you have begun with personal insults now, implying that I couldn't manage to read through three lines of text and am a grammar Nazi, we might as well end this discussion between us, don't you agree?

Link

Yes, I know what being a grammar nazi means. Better then you apparantly.

Use of these terms is often considered derogatory.

Use of these terms is often considered derogatory.

That made me laugh. Is there ever a place or time when 'nazi' isn't derogatory!?

Such a person is often accused of flaming as a result of finding fault with minor details of other participants' messages, and often only in opinions with which the accused grammar nazi disagrees.

And then, there's the bit immediately following the "derogatory" part:

However, some people do view grammar nazism as a virtue rather than a flaw and insist upon strict usage of the language in question. These individuals are more likely to wear the badge of "grammar nazi" with pride and can even refer to themselves in this manner. In some situations, a more relaxed method of speech or prose may be appropriate; it is these situations in which grammar nazis are more commonly chastised.

My point was you are choosing 1 sentence out of a post/comment and ignoring the rest. By doing so, you are not engaging in a discussion. Which brings us to:

The grammar nazi's method of argument often ignores the content of another user's argument and focuses on its quality, distracting from the issue at hand. This method may become an ad hominem attack, which is a logical fallacy. On the other hand, errors and stylistic flaws may themselves make an argument hard to follow, and for this reason they may be deliberately introduced by trolls.

So, when I made the comment: "Did you even read the post? Did the presence of those specific quotes get completely ignored by you? "

and you replied: "Actually no, I didn't read your whole post. I saw a lot of gibberish quotes which made me ignore most of it."

What conclusion was I to make? Even though you went on to say you went back and read the post, my guess is you weren't curious enough to click the Wikipedia link to find out what the quotes were. Those quotes were examples of a universal translator having difficulty translating a language. I interspersed them throughout the post to make a subtle statement. But you ignored them and in doing so, ignored part of the post's message.

Your responses clearly demonstrate you are less interested in having an intelligent dialogue than you are in ranting over something as trivial as text in a game. I'm more than willing to play "devil's advocate", even about a topic I don't care about, but a productive discussion requires multiple participants.

"As Smiley, the Psychotic Button says, 'Have a nice day!'"

What conclusion was I to make?

Well, you could have drawn the conclusion that if you are writing lots of gibberish, it's going to be ignored.
"Rai and Jiri at Lungha. Rai of Luwani, Luwani under two moons. Jiri, of Ubaya. Ubaya of crossed roads, at Lungha. Lungha, her skies grey" might have made sense to you but it didn't to me.

Even though you went on to say you went back and read the post, my guess is you weren't curious enough to click the Wikipedia link to find out what the quotes were. Those quotes were examples of a universal translator having difficulty translating a language. I interspersed them throughout the post to make a subtle statement. But you ignored them and in doing so, ignored part of the post's message.

I didn't either feel curious or inclined (the first time I saw your post) to go to some site or watch some old show just to understand the content of your post. Why didn't you simply write a normal post instead, writing about your "faulty translator"-explanation? If you write a normal post, I'll read through it. Otherwise, I can think of more fun things to do, like bashing my head to a wall for example.
Now if you take a look at your own gibberish, you will notice that there aren't any typos in there. And likewise, it makes no sense that a universal translator wouldn't be able to correctly pronounce words etc in your own language. Therefor, typos make no sense in your explanation either.

For those of you interested (and in spite of the claim that "no one would do it for free"), I've redone 10 of the .xml files for grammar and readability. I'd be happy to let anyone who's interested have copies of them - for free.

(See my post on "grammar" for an account of the changes and list of files altered.)

BTW, I think LBP pretty much nailed it. Except I'd love to see a movie with a scene where one of the characters had trouble saying the word "inquiry" and everyone took a couple minutes to poke fun at him before returning to the actual plot. That could be funny. Once.

Incidentally, IMO this game is actually pretty good when it comes to grammar, spelling, and typos. Considering the sheer amount of text involved there are surprisingly few outright "mistakes." So, despite the original poster's claim, the game does not contain "awful, awful spelling and grammar." It has some mistakes, that's all.

But it does have them, and many of them can and should be corrected.

Let me put the whole "universal translator" thing to bed. Flaws or limitations with a universal translator only explain "mistakes" in the conversations or flavor text. But I have corrected over 200 mistakes in other text which didn't involve translation or conversation of any kind.

1) Small hulls are "ideal for a heavy figher"
2) Superior hulls give us the ability "to be very, very large hulls"
3) UP issues offer to change the base constructor speed to Xpc/month when it means /week
4) The description for Large and Huge hulls has not changed to reflect the change in their logistics values, leading someone unfamiliar with the change log to think that they still take 5 and 6 points to coordinate (respectively).
5) Advanced Trade incorrectly states that it increases trade by 2 routes (it's actually 3)

I could expand this list, but what would be the point? Look, Stardock has a finite amount of resources to spend, and based on the change logs it's obvious that they're spending them on matters intimately related to gameplay. And while I dearly love precise language as much as (or more than) the next guy, in-game text is pretty far down on the list of things affecting gameplay. I would much rather have Stardock tweak the AI and improve the game "under the hood."

Heh, this thread is quite amusing...
Anyway, not being native English speaker I'm afraid I did not notice the bad spelling and grammar.
BUT, I really do think it needs to be fixed. I think most of the points why it should be fixed were mentioned, so I'll just arrange them nicely here:

1) It gives better impression. Little things like that do count; they show that Stardock cares about making the best product they can. Right now they do indeed appear sloppy. People here keep saying that no one is prefect - duh. But we DO OUR BEST. One should especially do his best when he's making a product he'll sell. And even more so when children will use it (see point #2).

2) Children are going to play the game. Native English speakers or not they will LEARN how to write and speak from the game. For example most of my knowledge is the English language is from computer games (again, not native speaker). I'd like to know that what I learn is the correct way to write and speak. Everyone here should care for that.

3) The argument that the errors were done on purpose is invalid. MAYBE (and I doubt it) the alien text have errors to simulate bad translation from alien language. But the manual? Your science bot? These talk the same language as the player.

4) Budget problems and priority - huh? I sincerely doubt it costs that much. I happen to know that here proofreading costs (translating price to dollars) 9 dollars for 250 words. Think of the profits this game makes, and the amount of money spent on programming and graphics. Now consider the amount of text that need to be corrected - the budget needed to correct is will be a comma in the expense sheet.
Also, the people who will do the proofreading are not the people who program the game, make the graphics, or whatever else. They will be professional proofreaders and so the time they spend proofreading is not time that could be used programming. All the other employees will work the same as they do now.

FYI I check most of my posts using Word's spell-check before posting. That's because I think writing well is important. It does show something on how much you respect yourself and the people who will read the post.

So when you make a professional computer game you really should put an effort into EVERY aspect of the game, and grammar - believe it or not - is one of those aspects.

Hi, just to give an impression of the German translation - several sentences are even reversed in meaning. If the status screen say that fleet A destroyed fleet B, it was actually the other way around. Also some English still remains in the game and some default ship names are english, while others german.

It doesn't disturb me too much, though.

it's a game, just have fun. When i read a book i worry about the grammar! Here i worry about the code.

My two cents...

UAF put it rightly in his first point above. Good spelling and grammar gives a better impression.

For many of us, the spelling errors ARE a distraction. To us, a book, an article or a game looks sloppy and rushed when it's full of spelling errors, because well, when we post to forums or write papers and they have those sorts of errors, it's generally because it WAS sloppy and rushed (or we were too lazy to go back and check our work). Proofreading is about presenting a professional image. That's why people do it.

When a game like this one is filled with spelling errors and bad grammar, it cuts down of the appearance of professionalism. It makes it look like the maker didn't care, or couldn't be bothered to check their work.

Is Stardock a professional company? Yes. Therefore, it's in their interest to make sure that they present themselves as such. The spelling and grammar as seen in this game isn't up to that standard. Spelling and grammar problems are excusable for fan mods, but not for a game that's sold in the store for 40 bucks.

Granted, the rest of the game is absolutely wonderful, and in the end, the spelling/grammar issue isn't a major one because of that. But don't you think it's in Stardock's interest to put its best foot forward, in both gameplay AND text content?

I do.

Perhaps a grammar/spelling thread could be started to point out specific problems that are noticed. Other threads have shown that if it's brought to Stardock's attention, they'll likely do something about it.