Weapons to the left, Weapons to the right

Where have all the good mass drivers gone

from GalCiv2 Forums
The last few games I have played (most up to date beta on SDC) the aliens and now myself are simply not investing their hard earned tax dollars into mass driver weapons like they used to. The last two games that I logged to the MV as a matter of fact it was missile oriented with one race (mine) actually pushing Beam weaponry as well as Missile as none of the other races had defenses for anything besides missile. Lets look at the why (feel free to post yer opinions as to why also, feel free to correct my opinions also! I have thick skin and unless you insult my patriotism I can handle it.)

Opinion 1) Aliens don't wanna go through the hassle of researching what... 23 levels to get to a 6 point damage weapon? (remember the nanoripper now is only a 5) Missile tech gets there in just over half the time from what I can see. Beam gets there in just about two thirds of the time it takes the Mass drivers.

Opinion 2) Aliens realize that "Size really does matter" - (really it doesn't ask your better half) Missiles take alot of space, mass drivers take a bit less, beam weapons the least.

Opinion 3) Aliens have to answer to Frogboy - The GC 2 AI is really the shining example of how to do something right in GC2, followed closely by ship design. Although the Alien isn't always right, I can tell you this; after submitting 28 games to the MV if I was to submit every game I have played with a win / loss it would be more like 75 games with 28 wins at the tough/painful/crippling the other 50 or so would have been losses.

In closing I would like to state I respect the descisions made by Stardock with GC2 changes and would defend their right to do so until they pry my handgun from my cold dead fingers. However, that being said I feel the overall effect of the changes made to mass drivers since the pre 1.0 (ie beta games) era has had the effect of making mass drivers the anti-choice of weapons.

Would it be to bold at this point to ask for an updated chart on weapons and armor be placed on the WIKI, if someone has it done of course. If no one can I will try my best to develop a new one over the next week or so.

W/R
Suralle Straykat
Kat Lord @ Large
5,765 views 12 replies
Reply #1 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
But they're cheap. Out of cash? chuck on a mass driver.
Reply #2 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Meh I personally would be happy if the AI would actually research far into one tree and not always research two or more of them and gimp themselves in the process. Last game for example i had to abbondon due to the araceans deciding to switch to mass drivers even though they where only 1 tech away from the black hope erupter in the missle weapon tree. Which in turn lead to them fighting my fleets (late game) with a average total attack rating of 15...WTF i was well over 200 using phasers and a few ships with psionic blasters.

Have yet to see the AI have better weapons then me, and yes this is only on tough or harder. Well actually i should say i have yet to see the AI use better weapons then me since at times they do research far enough but the AI sucks real hard at outfitting their ships.

Perhaps that the problem more so then them messing up in research, dont think i ever saw a somewhat decent designed AI ship they are always a joke even though the AI is usually ahead of me as far as overall tech goes.

Sure wish the AI woudnt design its own ships maybe then they would actually put up a fight, as is the game is far to easy on the hardest difficuly settings. They seem to do a good job at expanding influence but as far as millitary goes the game leaves alot to be desired.
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Reply #3 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

Then turn up the difficulty.  The game regularly beats me on Tough depending on how things go.

I had a game last night where the Arceans were coming at me with Photon torpedoes, which they had specialized on.  But I'm playing beta 4 of 1.1.

At some point, you'll get good enough that you'll hae to turn up the difficulty level.  You should try Gifted. At that level, its intuition is a bit higher and it's barely getting any advantages.

Reply #4 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
The AI do design their own ships based on cost efficiency, damage etc. They just call them defenders, escorts, and fighters.
Reply #5 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Early on in the game, particularly if I start near a militarily aggressive species, I research mass driver weaponry and slap it on what I call System Defenders -- basically nothing more than a tiny hulls with mass drivers mounted on them. Cheap, fast to make, and actually pretty good into the mid game if coupled with military starbases (defensively anyway).

I get the feeling the AI (pre 1.1 betas) started off with this approach and then stuck to it. In every game I've played so far, using 1.X, the AI has focused on mass driver weaponry. I was actually surpriced in a recent game when my intellegence reports picked up on the fact that one of my rivals was arming some ships with missles.
Reply #6 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Actually I rather enjoy the AI's ship development... I've been suprised a couple of times now, where I had a look at their ships--designed mine with the correct defense/offense combo to beat theirs and then they go and add a second class of weapons to their ships...Here I am with armor and their missiles are ripping through my hull like it was made of tissue paper.... I just hate the Altarans and their way stupid influence bonuses, they start absorbing races right out of the starting gate and its really hard to fight a war against a race that smiles at you all the time (and isn't thinking "Lunch")
Reply #7 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
i find that on my ships i always have all armor types of a value of at least 1. like if i'm fighting a race that likes beam weapons then i go heavy on the shields and 1 armor and 1 chaff. I do this because the square root of 1 is 1, so i always get two points of damage right off the top whenever my ships get hit! Then my beefed up armor kicks in and takes a big punch out of whatever else is coming at it. I normally have ships that are getting 0 damage for the first 10-20% of the game but i need it big time cause i suck at economy and i'm always strapped for cash
Reply #8 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I was a fan of missiles and beams since day 1. Never mass drivers though, I think it's because of the effects. (If they looked a little more like the railguns in Eraser, we'll talk) (Note: I didn't go too far in the tree, so they could still look like those)
Reply #9 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
When all AIs are geniuses or above on their difficulty/intelligence level, oh my they send in forces that have combined all weapons pretty nicely. Typically, Guns: 10, Missle: 6, Laser: 8, and some kind of defenses, earlier in the game. With lots of logistics, they later added more. The only reason I live is by....you guessed it....beefed up military bases. Invading is hard, since they too have their beefed up military bases. And yes, they defend that too. Not much by means of ships, but with the modules. Yup...pretty tough.

Reply #10 from GalCiv2 Forums Top


When all AIs are geniuses or above on their difficulty/intelligence level, oh my they send in forces that have combined all weapons pretty nicely. Typically, Guns: 10, Missle: 6, Laser: 8, and some kind of defenses, earlier in the game. With lots of logistics, they later added more. The only reason I live is by....you guessed it....beefed up military bases. Invading is hard, since they too have their beefed up military bases. And yes, they defend that too. Not much by means of ships, but with the modules. Yup...pretty tough.


It is counter intuitive, but combining weapons is not a smart thing to do. It is a weakness of the AI that needs some tweaking. Fleets specialize on one weapon type fare better than fleets with combined weapons. I am not saying that you should have ALL your fleets with one weapon type, but rather each individual fleet should only carry one type of weapon. It requires extra coordination in assembling your fleets.

Examples using the GC2 Combat Simulator Link

Example #1 (both fleets have two types of defense):
Fleet A (Hit Points: 100, Laser: 10, Gun: 10, Missile: 10, Shield: 10, Armor: 10, ECM: 0) vs.
Fleet B (Hit Points: 100, Laser: 30, Gun: 0, Missile: 0, Shield: 10, Armor: 10, ECM: 0)

Fleet B will win 90% of the time.

Example #2 (both fleets have single type of defense):
Fleet A (Hit Points: 100, Laser: 10, Gun: 10, Missile: 10, Shield: 10, Armor: 0, ECM: 0) vs.
Fleet B (Hit Points: 100, Laser: 30, Gun: 0, Missile: 0, Shield: 10, Armor: 0, ECM: 0)

Fleet B will win 66% of the time.

Example #3 (Fleet A has matching defense, Fleet B has two types of defense):
Fleet A (Hit Points: 100, Laser: 10, Gun: 10, Missile: 10, Shield: 20, Armor: 0, ECM: 0) vs.
Fleet B (Hit Points: 100, Laser: 30, Gun: 0, Missile: 0, Shield: 10, Armor: 10, ECM: 0)

Fleet B will win 68% of the time.

Reason: Each of the attacker weapon type counts as separate attack against the defender combined defense. Essentially the defender defense got counted two or three times.

Conclusion: Either the AI should be tweaked to not combining weapons on its fleets; or the combat calculation should be modified to not penalize fleets with combined weapons.
Reply #11 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
It is counter intuitive, but combining weapons is not a smart thing to do. It is a weakness of the AI that needs some tweaking. Fleets specialize on one weapon type fare better than fleets with combined weapons. I am not saying that you should have ALL your fleets with one weapon type, but rather each individual fleet should only carry one type of weapon. It requires extra coordination in assembling your fleets.


Reason: Each of the attacker weapon type counts as separate attack against the defender combined defense. Essentially the defender defense got counted two or three times.

Conclusion: Either the AI should be tweaked to not combining weapons on its fleets; or the combat calculation should be modified to not penalize fleets with combined weapons.


Actually it is better for a fleet to be multi weapon base, but for a ship to be single weapon base. In your examples, split your fleet into three ships, and arm one ship with beam, one with missile, and one with guns. No matter the defenses, you will come out on top. The reason is exactly as you state, each weapon type does count as a separate attack, but you have to realize that each ship is also a separate attack. So by having different ships focused on different weapons, and then combining it into a fleet, you gain the diversity of being able to kill any defense, but does not get penalized for it. If they designed their ships with defenses to all type of weapons, then they are just naturally screwed all over the place.



As for the OP: I completely agree with you. Mass driver is such a waste of time now. Before, when Nano-ripper was useful, I would attually spend the time grabbing it before rushing for Disruptor III, but now... I rush for Disruptor III and then max out missile, skipping Mass Drivers all together.