A Must Have Change

Buildings

Someone else brought this up and at the time I thought just ok. Now that I am far into the game I see this as a must have change. We have to be able to build old buildings. I just conqured a planet and used Titalwave to do it. Well I took the planet with most of its building destroyed and when I went to rebuild the factory it is going to take 400 turns. That's crazy! I should be allowed to start with the lvl 1 factory and build my way up. Please allow us to select old buildings. Maybe put a filter on to help keep the list short.
23,814 views 30 replies
Reply #1 Top
I like the way that you can only build the latest version of a building. As well as offering an incentive for keeping planets largely intact when invading, it also means older established planets with a built up infrastructure become increasingly essential as the game progresses.
Reply #2 Top
I like the way that you can only build the latest version of a building. As well as offering an incentive for keeping planets largely intact when invading, it also means older established planets with a built up infrastructure become increasingly essential as the game progresses.


amen. Tidalwave is a very COSTLY way of taking a planet and expecting it to be a production planet. I only use this if i'm wiping out a civilization, and don't need the planet production to win.

If you really want to take the planet, and keep its buildings, then use something other than building-destroying methods. Just make sure you have a TON of troop transports.

Leave it as-is.
Reply #3 Top
plus in the late games if u really want to turn planets into production planets just do rush buy, usually in the late games i have enough $ so that i can rush buy 2 to 3 factories per turn without doing any leases and jumpstart planets that i ahve just concored

or course i play on a gigantic map with tons and tons of planets so it will probably be harder to do this on smaller maps but it is a strategy to consider
Reply #4 Top
The lack of being able to build earlier versions of the buildings is a MAJOR bug!
It is completely stupid to think you would lose the ability to build lower tech items.

This is not always a choice, I had another race surrender plants to me with no factories.
These planets had 20bil+ populations, were a negative cash drain and had a very low morale.
An "Industrial Sector" cost like 10,000 to buy, not a good investment or wait the 400 weeks.

One of best options at this point is to destory any useful buildings, leave only farms and trade it to an enemy.

This gives low tech races a huge advantage later in the game.
Reply #5 Top
The lack of being able to build earlier versions of the buildings is a MAJOR bug!


A "bug" is something in the code that is not working as it was designed to. This is working exactly as designed, therefore it is not a bug, but a design decision that you happen to disagree with.

These planets had 20bil+ populations, were a negative cash drain


In that case there is something very wrong with your economy if you've got that many people on a planet and they're not generating enough tax revenue to cover expenses. Suggest you try altering your play style to get your economy in better shape.

Usually by the time I get to Industrial Sectors my economy is running at well over +10000bc per turn, and I can afford to buy them outright. The inability to build old buildings is not a major problem and makes perfect sense if you compare to a real-World situation (you wouldn't expect to build an old coal-fired power plant and then immediately start upgrading it to a nuclear plant today would you - you would see the vastly more expensive nuclear plant being built from scratch).
Reply #6 Top
i don't know if anyone else did, but i suggested that before the 1.1 betas came out. now i'm playing the betas, and i don't think it's a smart move. think about it this way. 1 industrial sector might take 400 turns or cost about 8k to buy. a basic factory, factory, enhanced factor, manufacturing center, and industrial sector, built in order on the same tile, might take less time because each subsequent structure is being built with the bonus from the previous one. true.

texas instruments doesn't offer an abicus because it'll be cheaper to upgrade to a graphing calculator later if you can't afford one now. and what they said about 'messy' invasion tactics having a price makes sense. and in 1.1, by the time i'm building the very expensive structures, i've usually got enough money to afford rushing them (heck, in the game i'm playing now i've got 4 economy mining bases, and i'm making more money than i know what to do with... taxes are at 20% and i'm still making over 1k a turn).

don't get me wrong, i like having more money. i'd just like having more things to spend it on. for example, it seems illogical to me that espionage does not require further spending once you reach advanced level. doesn't it take money to maintain spying networks? maybe there should be an automatic maintainence fee separate from spending. the spending slider in the F5/diplomacy screen could only represent spending used to advance espionage, but minimum maintainence could be added in addition to those costs in the F4/economy screen. just a thought. there's so much more money in the 1.1 screen, but i personally don't like spending all of it on rushing projects and upgrading ships (i never previously upgraded, but instead just built a new fleet and sold my old one to some poor sap).
Reply #7 Top
I noticed that you can annihilate the original colony and so loose alot of production and food. Without the colony the populace cannot survive well.
Reply #8 Top
I agree maybe "bug" is the wrong word.
The problem is IMO, that coupled with the vast number of other issues makes this game largely unplayable.

I reloaded an older saved game and I was wrong about the Income, they were making positive income. The morale was still a hit though.
I was running a lean economy seeing how fast I could get to a technology victory and seeing if technology was a large enough edge to protect me from much larger races.

The inability to build old buildings is not a major problem and makes perfect sense if you compare to a real-World situation (you wouldn't expect to build an old coal-fired power plant and then immediately start upgrading it to a nuclear plant today would you - you would see the vastly more expensive nuclear plant being built from scratch).


This case supports my point exactly, China is rapidly building more coal fired power plants, reason biggest bang for the buck and fast deployment. US has been bulding only gas and coal fired power plants, no new nuclear power plants. The best technology is not always the best solution some times quicker & cheaper is the best.

Reply #9 Top
Maybe it's more like . . if you sent a bunch of people over to colonise a new world, and at your home base you had ultra-super-laser power tools, and at this new planet you tell the colonists "Well, actually, here's a few chisels and useless robots that aren't even being manufacture anymore because they're so old".....
Reply #10 Top
How about, instead of building the future eqivilent of a large coal plant, how about a SMALL fusion reactor. instead of making you able to build basic factorys, you build 1/4 of an Industrial Sector. 1/4 the cost, but only 1/4 the output, while still taking up the whole square. I think it's a nice compromise. you still have the limit of keeping to your current tech lvl, w/o being able to go below, but you can still do a reduced option.
Reply #11 Top
Actually it's entirely believable that a society will have trouble building older tech version of things. Machines require specific parts and if you're not producing those parts anymore because you're building more advanced things, it will actually be costlier to go back and start building the old stuff again.

It's all about economies of scale for those with an economics background.
Reply #12 Top

The inspiriation for this game mechanic was real life:

When was the last sub-way built in the United States? How much does it cost to try to build a subway now? Anyone living in LA or in the Boston area? It's a huge problem that things that we used to be able to crank out relatively cheaply now cost immense amounts of money and time.

As technology improves, expenses go up often times.

Reply #13 Top
I like it the way it is. Less mm, streamlines the game.

There are ways to learn how to deal with it - improve your strategy.
Reply #14 Top
When i first heard the complaint about not being able to build older building i was like "yeah why the hell cant i build older buildings" but just the few posts againts building older buildings made me relize it does make sense and the game is better off they way it is in terms of this. Dont fix things that arnt broken
Reply #15 Top
Real life is different based on the economic structure a country has and that applies to this very case.

US would never build a dam using labor to dig with shovels because we have available large equipment that do the job faster and cheaper. China on the other hand stills build dams with a large labor force with shovels because they have a lot of labor and heavy equipment is not as abundant.

The only building I consider this a real problem with is the factory. The jump to the first 8mp makes a big difference in the time required from that point forward. In a very short time several 8mp factories makes more sense than building one 24mp factory.

This would be more like the reconstruction that would happen right after a natural disaster or war. First many temporary short term use structures are built to get things up and running. These will then provide the time to construct the long term facilities.
Reply #16 Top
I understand the "inspiration behind the game mechanic."

The United States is more likely to build a "new" subway than one using older technology, even if the older technology is cheaper. People are more likely to buy new calculators than using an abacus.

I understand because I live in a big city, where we have lots of money for public works and buying a calculator for five bucks is about as expensive as getting an abacus elsewheres for 2 bucks.

The problem is not "the idea." The problem is THE MATHEMATICS.

Say you just got a Grade 10 planet. That's 9 tiles to work with, because 1 goes to the initial colony.

Alright, say you just started and researched "Xeno Factories;" You have the option of building 10pt production at 540. You can have 9 of these for... let me pull out my graphing calculator....4860 bcs? So we have 9 factories fkr 90 production points for 4860. You use factories to produce more factories, so the build time gets shorter and shorter.

Now, say you're a newbie. You think that "Industrial Sector," more advanced production technology, is going to be superior than "Xeno Factories." So you research it. Now, you've got the option of 24 pts for over 10,000 bcs. And now, that's your only, only option if you want to build a production building. So the choices are 90pts/4800bcs and 24pts/10,000. You spend all the time and resources, and get a horrible pts/bcs tradeoff. Newbies don't know that with the current game mechanic, you actually get screwed for researching what's supposed to be an "Uber" technology. For them, the game is essentially over in terms of building factories "the natural way," once they research that technology, and unless they're producing over 10,000 bcs (possible, but by that time the game should be over anyways, unless you insist on having a 4yr old click the "end turn" button for better scores), they will never build another factory in under 400yrs without having to spend 10,000 per 24pt package.

So, the mathematics is what's wrong. In the United States, cities like Podunk, Kansas, don't need a New York sized subway. For a population of only 5 billion, the residents of Podunk Kansa might not need a Galactic Stock Exchange, either. But they have no other choice, because for some reason, the knowledge and option of building "practical" pts/bcs exchange has disappeared.

So basically, the present game mechanic is that new technology obsoletes the old technology, and erases knowledge of how to build small or medium scale, cheap and cost effective building. Since better technology is out there, you must use the better technology. This is like forcing people to buy a new computer every time a newer processor or graphics card comes out. The technology is out there... and it has "better" productivity value (unless you only touch cpu's for the games)... and can run load up WinXP or MS Office 20% faster. So you spend $5,000 every time a new cpu comes out, rather than stick with the budget $1,000.

At present, I find the game mechanic somewhat elitist, hurts both the newcomer, as well as veterans trying to make sense of a sci-fi setting. Better technology... which must be paid for in research costs.... will result in a poorer, and extremely prohibitive new pts/bcs exchange rate. It might take up less space, but the newer exchange rate is so poor that it's impractical to plop in another 10,000 bcs or another 5,000 bcs for a 4pt upgrade. Once you get to Manufacturing Centers, it's iffy.. .Industrial Sectors... just....no. Veterans know that Starbases are better; only research Industrial Sector to get Oribital Replicators for the Economy Starbases, actually building or upgrading to Industrial Sectors has hideously poor cost-effectiveness. Newbies are the only ones who would be foolish enough to research Industrial Sector for the purpose of actually building industrial Sectors. For Veterans, the game is over by the time your main planets are able to "naturally" upgrade its existing factories, because by that time, they're the only ones you can count on; any planets you turn or conquer will not be able to "naturally" build it, or can only do so after 40-400turns. Who should have to wait 40-400 turns to put 24pts on their planet? The only other option is to pay 10,000 bcs, which is the equivalent of 2 Huge-hulled, fully armed, defended, thruster-enhanced capital ships.

This apparantly makes sense to some people, including the developers, so it's unlikely to change.
Reply #17 Top
I understand the "inspiration behind the game mechanic."

The United States is more likely to build a "new" subway than one using older technology, even if the older technology is cheaper. People are more likely to buy new calculators than using an abacus.

I understand because I live in a big city, where we have lots of money for public works and buying a calculator for five bucks is about as expensive as getting an abacus elsewheres for 2 bucks.

The problem is not "the idea." The problem is THE MATHEMATICS.

Say you just got a Grade 10 planet. That's 9 tiles to work with, because 1 goes to the initial colony.

Alright, say you just started and researched "Xeno Factories;" You have the option of building 10pt production at 540. You can have 9 of these for... let me pull out my graphing calculator....4860 bcs? So we have 9 factories fkr 90 production points for 4860. You use factories to produce more factories, so the build time gets shorter and shorter.

Now, say you're a newbie. You think that "Industrial Sector," more advanced production technology, is going to be superior than "Xeno Factories." So you research it. Now, you've got the option of 24 pts for over 10,000 bcs. And now, that's your only, only option if you want to build a production building. So the choices are 90pts/4800bcs and 24pts/10,000. You spend all the time and resources, and get a horrible pts/bcs tradeoff. Newbies don't know that with the current game mechanic, you actually get screwed for researching what's supposed to be an "Uber" technology. For them, the game is essentially over in terms of building factories "the natural way," once they research that technology, and unless they're producing over 10,000 bcs (possible, but by that time the game should be over anyways, unless you insist on having a 4yr old click the "end turn" button for better scores), they will never build another factory in under 400yrs without having to spend 10,000 per 24pt package.

So, the mathematics is what's wrong. In the United States, cities like Podunk, Kansas, don't need a New York sized subway. For a population of only 5 billion, the residents of Podunk Kansa might not need a Galactic Stock Exchange, either. But they have no other choice, because for some reason, the knowledge and option of building "practical" pts/bcs exchange has disappeared.

So basically, the present game mechanic is that new technology obsoletes the old technology, and erases knowledge of how to build small or medium scale, cheap and cost effective building. Since better technology is out there, you must use the better technology. This is like forcing people to buy a new computer every time a newer processor or graphics card comes out. The technology is out there... and it has "better" productivity value (unless you only touch cpu's for the games)... and can run load up WinXP or MS Office 20% faster. So you spend $5,000 every time a new cpu comes out, rather than stick with the budget $1,000.

At present, I find the game mechanic somewhat elitist, hurts both the newcomer, as well as veterans trying to make sense of a sci-fi setting. Better technology... which must be paid for in research costs.... will result in a poorer, and extremely prohibitive new pts/bcs exchange rate. It might take up less space, but the newer exchange rate is so poor that it's impractical to plop in another 10,000 bcs or another 5,000 bcs for a 4pt upgrade. Once you get to Manufacturing Centers, it's iffy.. .Industrial Sectors... just....no. Veterans know that Starbases are better; only research Industrial Sector to get Oribital Replicators for the Economy Starbases, actually building or upgrading to Industrial Sectors has hideously poor cost-effectiveness. Newbies are the only ones who would be foolish enough to research Industrial Sector for the purpose of actually building industrial Sectors. For Veterans, the game is over by the time your main planets are able to "naturally" upgrade its existing factories, because by that time, they're the only ones you can count on; any planets you turn or conquer will not be able to "naturally" build it, or can only do so after 40-400turns. Who should have to wait 40-400 turns to put 24pts on their planet? The only other option is to pay 10,000 bcs, which is the equivalent of 2 Huge-hulled, fully armed, defended, thruster-enhanced capital ships.

Upgrading planet tiles is a central game concept and a determinant in the player’s overall enjoyment of the game, and the existing logic for why a broader array of building options- including previous pts/bcs exchange mediums- vanish, once new tecnology is researched, apparantly makes sense to some people, including the developers, so it's unlikely to change. To be honest, it makes sense to me, too; in the 1970’s, the slide-rule industry vanished overnight with the advent of a new gizmo called the “electronic calculator.” In six years, it fell out of production and became a museum exhibit. The problem is that we’re talking about pts/bcs exchange rates, relative to marginal profits and costs. It’s why most of us don’t buy certain $500 graphing calculators; even if we could have only one calculator, the most any of use would spend would probably be $100, because the difference for the general user is marginal. The $500 dollor calculator might even be harder to use. It’s why people aren’t rushing out to but the latest $20,000 laptop to be able to run Galactic Civilizations II.

In short, I’d affirm the original grievance and request that it’d be addressed; having more building options can be exciting, and enhance the stimulation- and they’re already in the game.
Reply #18 Top
When the hurricane wiped out all those houses in the Southern US, they did not tell everyone to wait until they could build them a new 3 bedroom 2.5 bath house with all the modern appliances in it, they put them in trailers. Very low tec. If we ever colonize Mars, we will not start out by building the latest version of the Toyota factory. We will start with something small and expand. I guess I'm not looking at it from a tec point of view but rather a scale point of view like some of the other posts here.

PS the trailor thing is just an example please don't go OT with how crappy a job the goverment did after teh hurricanes.
Reply #19 Top
(p.s. My first time on the forums. I'm trying to delete, or at least edit out the 2.52pm entry, and I hit the "Edut" button and get an error message saying: " Server Error in '/' Applications. " Is this normal? Is there any other way to revise after proofreading?)
Reply #20 Top
What we have here is two completely different arguments now:

1) The negative effects of using infrastructure-damaging invasion tactics

2) The negative effects of obsoleting older technologies.

If you don't want to have a completely ravaged world to rebuild after invading it, then build transports with more than one transport module (or better equivalent) and make a fleet out of them.

Something does need to be done about the whole "previous technology" issue, because it makes establishing and rebuilding colonies an investment rather than a feasibility issue. Sure, you can drop 10 trillion bucks down on an Industrial Sector, but then it's just a cash issue (can you afford it or not). A new colony would not rationally start with a factory capable of sustaining the needs of trillions of people, it would start with a factory capable of sustaining a new colony.

Arguments pointing out that the ability to manufacture older parts have limited merit, there will always be "lower tech" implementations, but it is reasonable that a high-tech culture would not start with a hand-tool shop, so perhaps allow one, or possibly two steps backwards in the lineage. If you can build Industrial Sectors, then you can still build Manufacturing Centres and possibly Enhanced Factories, but not Factories or basic Factories.

Ascendancy (a very old galaxy-conquering game that still holds its own in gameplay compared to most modern variants) allowed you to go all the way back into the tech tree when you conquered or colonized a world late in the game, and thus you had the choice of using the equivalent of a Basic Factory to get your planets started, and it worked wonderfully because you could start small and then build the "better stuff" later. Your economy built upon itself rather that requiring you to plop down the latest and greatest toy, which you couldn't do anyway because there was no "money" to buy them with.
Reply #21 Top
Keep in mind that part of the beauty of the game's simplicity is that planetary buildings involved with military, social, and research boil down to this:

x pts for y bcs

You can glorify the model by saying it has to be like reality (when it really isn't, and if it should start resembling true economics it will stop being fun). We're really talking about exchange-rate options, and investment in exchange mediums. Putting names like "Factories," "Manufacturing Centers," "Industrial Sectors," give these exchange-rate packages a label, and a bit of context. We're also talking about the array of exchange-rate packages available. You can label them whatever you want, if trying to make sense of the labels makes the game more fun to you- the labels really don't have to make sense- but that's essentially what we're talking about.

And yes, I've noticed that I only use "mini-soldiers" or "information warfare" by the late-gate, specifically because trying to rebuild the buildings after destroying the buildings could cost more bcs than I've accumulated through the entire game. Not practical, and if you're concerned about things like that, not realistic.

The key thing here is that you need factories to make factories; kind of like money. You need money to make money. And if there aren't factories on the planet, you won't have more factories to make more factories and/or other buildings.

ps. Might want to spend time in other areas, or repost this line of thought somewhere else; this is a fresh series of post, for some reason (not sure who's been reading these) it's no longer viewable via the forum main page or the left-hand side list of topic headers
Reply #22 Top
Oh god, not this again... I wonder how many times people will bring up the same topic. (I really wish the search feature would look through more than the title of a post, then again maybe these people wouldn't bother searching anyways)

The system that was put into place was intended to do exactly what it is doing. If you can't accept that and develop your strategies around it, then mod the game to your liking, but please don't go around saying it is broken. Here, I'll even tell you how to do it:

1) Invasion that destroys improvement. This is very understandable from gameplay AND realistic perspective. Gameplay wise, it is meant to be used only as a desperation measure, and realistically, well... tidal disruption would probably be most devastating. However, If you don't like it, just mod "InvTactics.xml" and reduce the effects. It involves modifying two numbers in each tactic entry...


2) Not being able to build older buildings. This is also understandable from a gameplay AND realistic perspective. Gameplay wise, it is designed specifically to make older planets more useful, and realistically there are many examples (IE: how many modern hunters use stone spears?). However, if you don't like it, mod "PlanetImprovements.xml" and either...

a) Remove the {S_UpgradeTarget} tag from all the buildings. This will let you build everything all the time, but will ruin auto upgrade by the governors, and probably ruin the AI as well.

b) Copy your basic factory and call it "Starter Factory". Then build that first on those new worlds and upgrade it later... but of course the AI wouldn't know this strategy, so you gain a significant advantage.

c) Change the cost of the building to be more in line with how much resources they produce (make Basic Factory cost 80, and Industrial Sector cost 220). While it doesn't fix the fundamental problem with not being able to build older buildings, it will definitely fix the 10k BC cost or 400 turn problem, and will also be fair for the AI as well.


Personally I like a combination of method 2c, with a mix of the normal gameplay. But hey, it's your game. If you don't like how it is, make it what you want. As long as you don't go about screaming things are broken, when they are, indeed, not.

As for the idea about breaking this into new threads. "..." We have plenty of these already, most of them are buried because people keep making new threads about the same things. Please try to take that into consideration.
Reply #23 Top
This will keep coming up again and again as more and more people play the game because it is a fundamental flaw in game design.

I had a race surrender planets to me with no factories, so the method invasion does not apply.

I also have absolutely no desire to go modding the game, I'll play it "as is" until the holes, exploits and bugs make it no longer fun.


Reply #24 Top
Yeah...I never use any invasion tactics except Information Warfare and Mini-Soldiers, and the last only very rarely, because I don't want to destroy everything. Still, while I was conquering the Drath today, almost none of their planets HAD factories to start with. They had planets with four farms and no factories. (They also had a planet where they were upgrading a farm to a factory, with the next item in the queue was upgrading a factory to a farm, but I digress...)

This was on intelligent, too, and it made all their planets useless for the rest of the game.
Reply #25 Top
Just checked back on this thread to see the responses

This will keep coming up again and again as more and more people play the game because it is a fundamental flaw in game design.


Agreed. Although after looking through the list of changes that have been made, I think that it's addressed as a "design feature" primarily not to cover up a flaw, but because all the exchange-rate packages to be available would give the human player too much of an advantage. Having these options would require that the AI be strong enough to assess compare previous options with the new ones, with the optimal configuration being different for each planet, and relative to proximity to neighbors, and other considerations. Looking at the change logs, the developers are still trying to deal with things like the computer being able to assess when or when not to attack a starbase- humans can do that quickly and easily. The AI simply isn't strong enough at present, and they're calling it a "design feature" so that they won't have to address it immediately- if ever, it might simply be too complicated (for AI).

I also have absolutely no desire to go modding the game, I'll play it "as is" until the holes, exploits and bugs make it no longer fun.


And Kalin, this might be news to you, but most of us participating in the Metaverse community are disgusted and discouraged by "cheating." On the Metaverse, all three of your proposals would be considered "cheating."