Ship combat and design - How does it really work?

If you look in the Game Talk Forum, the top post is a sticky - a combat simulator that will let you try out different weapons and armor combinations in a simulated fight to see how they hold up.

Thanks Oldstatesman...but I have tried it numerous times and the only way to easily beat a laser 3, 0 defense is to have a 2 laser and 3 defense...which is too big for my ship size. I guess I could research more minaturization (sp?) but I question is this:

Assuming that everything was equal, how would one tailor their ships (with their current research and tech) to beat that laser 3, 0 defense (18HP).

Initiative is also a big factor. If you are the attacker your chances of winning are higher because you get a first strike. Pure defense ships have never made sense in any of my games - if you have no offense the enemy will kill you eventually no matter how good your defense is.

 As for beating that attack 3 laser ship on equal tech - use starbases to increase your attack and defense. Make sure your ships do at least the same damage as the enemy, more attack is better than higher defense.  I have had good experiences using missiles, might want to try them.

nt

the only way to easily beat a laser 3, 0 defense is to have a 2 laser and 3 defense...which is too big for my ship size

On equal terms (no starbases or other defense/offense bonus - did you check their race bonusses?) a 'laser 3, 0 defense' ship should be beaten by 'any offense 1, 3 laser defense'.

Your 3 laser defense will counter the laser offense of your opponent each time, independent of who would have the first strike. In this case you will not lose any hitpoints, so your ship remains fully intact. Each time you fire your '1 offense', your oppenent will lose some hitpoints, eventually destroying him.

If you feel this takes too long to watch. press the 'speed 1x' button and set it to 'speed 10x'. Or press 'done' to see the end-result immediately.

In this case you will not lose any hitpoints

Not true, they'll hit you occasionally, but never more than two.
However, you'll hit them for 1 each turn.
So it's very likely for you to win. Just research the shields line until you get smaller, PD

On equal terms (no starbases or other defense/offense bonus - did you check their race bonusses?) a 'laser 3, 0 defense' ship should be beaten by 'any offense 1, 3 laser defense'. Your 3 laser defense will counter the laser offense of your opponent each time, independent of who would have the first strike. In this case you will not lose any hitpoints, so your ship remains fully intact. Each time you fire your '1 offense', your oppenent will lose some hitpoints, eventually destroying him. If you feel this takes too long to watch. press the 'speed 1x' button and set it to 'speed 10x'. Or press 'done' to see the end-result immediately.

I thought this was the case too but I don't think it works that way. According to wiki, the combat simulator and the in-game test (albeit I'm at a lower difficulty) you roll for your attack and defense from 0 to the maximum attack/defense value. So in theory it is possible for you to do no damage to a ship that has 0 defense ie. you roll 0.

If there was a tech or a way to increase the minimum value...then that would certainly add more strategy to the mix.
So if your defense is 3 and their attack is 3...you will still get damaged. That is why I think the game is still tailored to the "bigger the better" mentality (its not really a bad thing though....just more diverse weapons can increase strategy.)

For instance, imageine researching weapon tech that can do more than just increase attack/defense value. Maybe a weapon that specific affect defense. ie it does no damage but it strips all the defense of your enemy ship for x combat turn.

Remember, 3 attack and 3 defence just mean hit for 1-3 damage and defend for 1-3 damage (halved if the defence is of the wrong type). A 3-0 can beat a 1-3 with some lucky rolls on their side and unlucky on yours.

If there was a tech or a way to increase the minimum value...then that would certainly add more strategy to the mix.
So if your defense is 3 and their attack is 3...you will still get damaged. That is why I think the game is still tailored to the "bigger the better" mentality (its not really a bad thing though....just more diverse weapons can increase strategy.)

For instance, imageine researching weapon tech that can do more than just increase attack/defense value. Maybe a weapon that specific affect defense. ie it does no damage but it strips all the defense of your enemy ship for x combat turn.

Wow, TNTTony you got quite a few good questions in there! I'll start with what I know for the quicker to answer ones.

-No, an 0 Att, all Def wouldn't work because at some point you would roll a low Def against their attack.

-Yes it is possible to beat an enemy if they out-tech you. It really needs to be a combination of Mil Starbases and ships with attack and mobility to be effective though. Focus on attack points they dont have a defence for and a 'bit' of defence. Now put ship assist modules for attack and def on your Mil Starbases (only takes 3 constructors to get going) and any ships with a point in any Def will benefit from a ship assist Def module. Not all the AI ships will be the latest and greatest design anyway. I suppose this is possible using just ships but you will need a lot of regular and timely replacements to maintain.

-Coloniser ships make great defense because they cost no maintenance, they are enough to stop Troop ships sneaking in un-escorted (any ship is) and you probably have a surplus after the initial colony rush is over anyway. Okay, okay they have no attack but if you leave combat ships in orbit they are expensive, tied up in defense and not going to beat an enemy fleet and the enemy IS going to send fleets. So you have to build a Orbital Manager if you use combat ships to defend your planet so now you need more combat ships to defend a planet so they can be a fleet in an attack but then they have to be able to beat the AI fleet so they have to be your good ships and blah blah blah!!!! Do you see the escalation? Better to have 1 ship in orbit that costs nothing and have your combat ships available and mobile. If the worst comes to the worst you can always evacuate 1bn people...

-Starship design is a biggie! Too many times I have played by the "rules" and got mashed in straight up fights that I should roll the AI over in. I could even be the only one with any Def but I still get heavy hits against me whilst doing 0 and 1 dmg. To put it in perspective I found a Lucky Ranger, does about 24 Att. Sent it against a very low tech small hull figher and it hits for 4!! Man alive that sucks.

So heres an effective "Design" i use on low tech medium hulls - 3 guns, so depending on my tech at the time either 6 or 9 dmg, a Def of 3 and enough engines for 6 - 9 moves. Combined in fleets of 4 or 5 ships and it will last a long time. That would typically be my 3rd design of a combat ship. My first (small hull) would be 2/0 and I can fleet only 3 ships, my second (small hull) would be 4/1 and maybe 4 in a fleet and my third (medium) is 6/3 or 9/3. I use these to stamp my authority or hold my own at the start of a game and depending on my empire I might have 4 or 5 fleets. Even the first design is useful later in the game. Parked next to Mil Starbases they can hold the line or chase Troop transports trying to sneak by.

Phew, hope that helps! Congrats if you read it all.

Wow, TNTTony you got quite a few good questions in there! I'll start with what I know for the quicker to answer ones. -No, an 0 Att, all Def wouldn't work because at some point you would roll a low Def against their attack. -Yes it is possible to beat an enemy if they out-tech you. It really needs to be a combination of Mil Starbases and ships with attack and mobility to be effective though. Focus on attack points they dont have a defence for and a 'bit' of defence. Now put ship assist modules for attack and def on your Mil Starbases (only takes 3 constructors to get going) and any ships with a point in any Def will benefit from a ship assist Def module. Not all the AI ships will be the latest and greatest design anyway. I suppose this is possible using just ships but you will need a lot of regular and timely replacements to maintain. -Coloniser ships make great defense because they cost no maintenance, they are enough to stop Troop ships sneaking in un-escorted (any ship is) and you probably have a surplus after the initial colony rush is over anyway. Okay, okay they have no attack but if you leave combat ships in orbit they are expensive, tied up in defense and not going to beat an enemy fleet and the enemy IS going to send fleets. So you have to build a Orbital Manager if you use combat ships to defend your planet so now you need more combat ships to defend a planet so they can be a fleet in an attack but then they have to be able to beat the AI fleet so they have to be your good ships and blah blah blah!!!! Do you see the escalation? Better to have 1 ship in orbit that costs nothing and have your combat ships available and mobile. If the worst comes to the worst you can always evacuate 1bn people... -Starship design is a biggie! Too many times I have played by the "rules" and got mashed in straight up fights that I should roll the AI over in. I could even be the only one with any Def but I still get heavy hits against me whilst doing 0 and 1 dmg. To put it in perspective I found a Lucky Ranger, does about 24 Att. Sent it against a very low tech small hull figher and it hits for 4!! Man alive that sucks. So heres an effective "Design" i use on low tech medium hulls - 3 guns, so depending on my tech at the time either 6 or 9 dmg, a Def of 3 and enough engines for 6 - 9 moves. Combined in fleets of 4 or 5 ships and it will last a long time. That would typically be my 3rd design of a combat ship. My first (small hull) would be 2/0 and I can fleet only 3 ships, my second (small hull) would be 4/1 and maybe 4 in a fleet and my third (medium) is 6/3 or 9/3. I use these to stamp my authority or hold my own at the start of a game and depending on my empire I might have 4 or 5 fleets. Even the first design is useful later in the game. Parked next to Mil Starbases they can hold the line or chase Troop transports trying to sneak by. Phew, hope that helps! Congrats if you read it all.

Hey thanks for the post. It was certainly helpful. Just out of interest, is there a reason why you use guns (mass drivers) only?

The problem with defense is that the best defense is more offense until you reach large/huge hulls. Try finding two fleets of the same BC cost where you aren't better off spending it all on offense-- it's hard.

Ships are terrible at defending planets from orbit because they don't get starbase bonuses or fleet logistics unless you have the ship coordinator development. So they're just sitting ducks.

To effectively defend a system, try this:

1. Design ships with a single point of defense (you need a single point of defense to get the starbase defense assists), two of the fastest engines you have researched, and use the rest of the space for weapons.
2. Build enough of these to create the largest fleet your logistics will allow, plus one.
3. Build a starbase with the general +1 defense assist, as well as the most appropriate +3 defense assist. Add attack assists when you can. (Plus some attack/defense modules for the starbase itself in case it gets attacked).
4. With your fleet parked next to your starbase, you can rapidly get first strike on any enemy that comes into the starbase's assist halo. Park the extra ship (see point 2 above) on your planet.
5. After a battle, if a ship has taken damage, swap it out for the parked ship (a ship in orbit repairs at 2x the normal rate).
6. Repeat. In this way a small fleet can fight off wave after wave of attackers without ever taking a loss. Not only that, but because of experience benefits, the ships' hp will go up a lot over time.

Good stuff in this thread.

Maybe should have put "weapons" not "guns" there. I normally use beam weapons. LaserII and the first miniaturisation will let you put 2 weapons and a good Drive on a small hull right at the start.

To be honest I dont know which weapon I'll choose until I click the button! I will check the diplomacy screen to see what Weapons and Def the AI has (usually all have the same one even on Challenging - diplomacy screen is free espionage). But that will only really affect my Def choice.