Cloaking, Sensors, Missiles and Ammo

Ballistic subs in space

from GalCiv2 Forums
While playing last night I realized that this game was totally missing some of the touchstones of modern combat.

First off, in modern warfare the best strike is one that your enemy can't see till it's too late, and then is gone. The greatest representation of this is the ballistic submarine, which can appear out of nowhere, launch a huge amount of devestation, and then vanish. Another example would be the cruise missile.

While an AWACS (a ship with a huge sensor range) is useful in GalCiv2, it'd be much more useful if there were cloaked units that could only be detected by certain types of sensors. Or better yet, to encourage players to use overlapping scanning fields, cloaked units would be detected if they fell within the sensor range of two or more units, as if cloaking technology were perspective-based (ie, it couldn't appear invisible to two viewpoints simultaneously).

Also, the weapons in GalCiv2 just don't have the kind of oomph I'd like. I'm thinking about planetary bombardment, or even the huge ion frigates in Homeworld where the main gun is so big the ship is built around it. It'd be really cool if there were some weapons that could do huge damage to ships or directly to enemy populations, but then needed to reload/recharge at friendly planets, space stations, or maybe even logistics ships.

On that thought, it'd also be kind of cool if we could actually map out supply lines much in the same way we map trade routes. Right now ships can operate as long as they're close enough to a friendly planet but we aren't given the option to try to sever their supply line. Since this range is based largely on life support, it might be an interesting tactic to be able to cut off a ship so long the crew is forced to abandon, thereby leaving a capturable derelict floating in space.

Just a couple thoughts.
14,583 views 13 replies
Reply #1 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Cloaking: cool, but the AI has enough problems handling surprise attacks as it is, if you ask it to handle cloaking too it would die a horrible death.

Multiple sensors: you would just have two cargo ships full of sensors sitting in one tile instead of one. Fun idea, but useless gameplay wise except making the AI put more effort into AWACS, which it doesn't even do now.

Huge weapons that toast planets: Terror Stars... it might come back, might not. Probably not. Because...

Planetary Bombardment: Again, fun idea, but would kill gameplay. You'd have a massive fleet fly by their empire and just toast EVERYTHING in it's path. There's no way to intercept transports. Basically if you're weaker than someone, then you have ZERO chance. Think Imperium Galatica II (It's a fun game, but it all boils down to creating an "Ultimate" fleet and going about thrashing the other guy's planet one after another after another after... etc). Just throw strategy out of the window now, it'll be a ship pumping game all over again. The problem is, the amount of time it takes for someone to build a planet is way too long compared to the amount of time you can reduce them to ashes, so the first player who comes up with this ultimate fleet will always win. Where as, if you force someone to bother capturing a planet, you might be able to retake it afterwards.

Ion Frigates: resize your guns to REALLY BIG and stuff it on a tiny ship.

Supply Lines: This is actually interesting, but imagine what it would do to the gameplay. As if the AI doesn't have enough trouble guarding it's troop transports, if you could strandle their fleets and take it over... my god.


In summary: While your ideas are interesting, most of them will probably never see the light of day, simply because they would make the AI a cakewalk. Adding any of these features will mean massive AI changes, that would take months to work out. Others, like Planetary Bombardment, while a nice sensical feature, would just kill the game completely.
Reply #2 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
First off, in modern warfare the best strike is one that your enemy can't see till it's too late, and then is gone. The greatest representation of this is the ballistic submarine, which can appear out of nowhere, launch a huge amount of devestation, and then vanish. Another example would be the cruise missile.


This can mainly be done already, by creating very fast ships, and staying out of the AI's sensor range until you want to attack. You could make one a "cruise missile" by making a cargo hull filled with nothing but engines and weapons (Maybe some life support to add range), and as long as they got first strike, they could do a lot of damage. This is actually a strategy many people already use. Sneak attacks are a strategy you can already use in the game against the AI, just make your ships fast enough to be able to stay outside of the AI's sensor range and still attack them in one turn.
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Reply #3 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I'm not sure the added complexity (not to mention pain-in-the-ass factor) is worth the gain. There's a reason almost zero games implement signature/detection (excusing stealth titles like SH3 and Thief of course) and logistics footprint.

However, the idea that a starfaring nation has no planetary bombardment is ridiculous. Slap whatever limits you want on it (low damage, low effectiveness, must hold uncontested orbitspace etc) but even rolling nuclear gravity bombs out airlocks would suit me fine. You SHOULD be able to destroy infrastructure without invasion - it's one of my few beefs with this game that until you get invasion technology, you can't do shit to enemy planets. The regular starship weapons are too weak to be used for planetary bombardment, but it's absurd that these nations can't just knock up some nukes to flatten enemy factories any whatnot.

I'd also like to see 'big ass' versions of each tech level weapon. I know that adding more guns is an abstraction for a single, larger gun, but graphically I'd like to be able to choose between ST/FS2 style 'flush gunports', regular guns and 'ginormous battleship turrets' on components.
Reply #4 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
The greatest representation of this is the ballistic submarine, which can appear out of nowhere, launch a huge amount of devestation, and then vanish. Another example would be the cruise missile.


You haven't put a lot of engines on a ship yet have you? Once your tech has gone a few levels into engines and miniturization and you have larger hull ships...then you can start fielding the 20-30 movement ships that have a single turn range of twice the max sensor range. If that can't provide you with a sneak attack, nothing will.

Cruise missles actually move quite slowly...for a missle. Their strength is they can be programmed with a mapped out approach (essentially with way points) and strike with surgical precision. If they happen to cross a gun battery during the trip, the trip ends rather easily.
Reply #5 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
but graphically I'd like to be able to choose between ST/FS2 style 'flush gunports', regular guns and 'ginormous battleship turrets' on components.


What Kalin said:

Ion Frigates: resize your guns to REALLY BIG and stuff it on a tiny ship.
Reply #6 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
double post :S
Reply #7 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Skelton, you don't understand. I specifically addressed the current state of affairs in my post.

I want to be able to drop a *single* gun item with the rating of *several* of that tech-levels weapons. I don't want to cover my ship in inflated guns - I want to be able to mount *less* weapons, with the same power. Hence, laser-1 and 'huge laser-1 (damx2, sizex2, nice turret graphic)'.
Reply #8 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
All I have to say so far is this...

There are real-world cruise missiles that travel at speeds of mach 5. There is no time for visual confirmation of any sort, unless your FCS locks on to it through other targetting methods. A phalanx or other point defense gun essentially works by producing a wall of bullets for it to run into. Some other types of missiles can be guided after launch or are simply given their target and are programmed to reach that target even if communication is lost (which is how GPS Inertial bombs work).

Really, a cruise missile is just a UAV designed with the purpose of self-destruction. Therefore its limitations are just those of present aerospace technology. Keep in mind that a major limiting factor in the speed of aircraft is based on the stress the pilot can survive.
Reply #9 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
t'd be much more useful if there were cloaked units that could only be detected by certain types of sensor


Original galciv had this. It sucked. so no. Just make ships with 20 moves, same basic thing but much better.

Terror stars are mentioned in the code, and the UP resolutions, but aren't there because it's just so unfair. The AI would also be much better at it than new players, and then we'd have more "cheating!" complaints from people who have no idea you're meant to blow planets up.

I like supply lines though. Think it's been mentioned a few times. I like the idea of surgically annexing certain parts of an empire, like the Terrans supposedly did in their history. Problem again, is the AI are quite efficient at killing trade routes, it would probably do it to new players too much.
Reply #10 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Supply Lines: This is actually interesting, but imagine what it would do to the gameplay. As if the AI doesn't have enough trouble guarding it's troop transports, if you could strandle their fleets and take it over... my god.


What? I end up turning the AI's fleets into space junk all the time anyways, what would I do with such crap ships? They belong on a used starship lot. The AI keeps every antique pos they can! Maybe a way to force them to have to build some newer design would make the game more interesting.
Reply #11 from Stardock Forums Top
As far as cloakign it shoudl be handled in a different manner if there is any to be implemented. As combat is the attackign side gets to fire first, I think that's wrong. Ships shoudl trade fire one by one and attacking side may have one of it's ships fire first. Now ships with cloaking will get to fire before ships with not. But the ships would still be visible on the main screen. The cloack coudl just appar visually different. But this is probably as far as we can and shoudl go with cloak.
Reply #12 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
However, the idea that a starfaring nation has no planetary bombardment is ridiculous. Slap whatever limits you want on it (low damage, low effectiveness, must hold uncontested orbitspace etc) but even rolling nuclear gravity bombs out airlocks would suit me fine. You SHOULD be able to destroy infrastructure without invasion - it's one of my few beefs with this game that until you get invasion technology, you can't do shit to enemy planets. The regular starship weapons are too weak to be used for planetary bombardment, but it's absurd that these nations can't just knock up some nukes to flatten enemy factories any whatnot.


As I mentioned before, while the idea of planetary bombardment makes perfect logical sense, it would lead to massive fleets that just roll over entire empires at a time. Low damage, low effectiveness, uncontested orbit means nothing when a fleet can fly 20+ spaces and can do it that many times. What you suggest would have to be a total reworking of the planetary invasion system. Next thing you know people will demand ship components that can be used as "bombs", smart bombs for buildings, plague bombs for populations, and heck, let's just train marines instead of sending billions of people to their deaths. A lot of things don't make sense in the game, but it works. Don't try to "fix" things that work, please, it usually just brings new problems.


want to be able to drop a *single* gun item with the rating of *several* of that tech-levels weapons. I don't want to cover my ship in inflated guns - I want to be able to mount *less* weapons, with the same power. Hence, laser-1 and 'huge laser-1 (damx2, sizex2, nice turret graphic)'.


Simply put a really big size weapon on your ship, and shrink the others and hide it inside the hull. That way it looks like you have one big weapon that does that much damage. As for nice turret graphics, make it yourself, they are all modable.


What? I end up turning the AI's fleets into space junk all the time anyways, what would I do with such crap ships? They belong on a used starship lot. The AI keeps every antique pos they can! Maybe a way to force them to have to build some newer design would make the game more interesting.


The AI upgrades their ships now, before they couldn't, so they were stuck with them until you blow them up. But that's not the point, if you could cut their supply lines when they have fleets deep inside your territory killing your core worlds, it would create a "bait and trap" strategy using a vulnerable core world DEEP inside your space that no AI would ever be able to counter. This is very bad, because the AI could lose its entire military even if they were up to date. Or would you like to start writing guessing algorithm for... "erm, is that a trap?" scenarios.
Reply #13 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I want to be able to drop a *single* gun item with the rating of *several* of that tech-levels weapons. I don't want to cover my ship in inflated guns - I want to be able to mount *less* weapons, with the same power. Hence, laser-1 and 'huge laser-1 (damx2, sizex2, nice turret graphic)'.


Hmmm... ok. Try the opposite... Since weapons/jewelry have to go on a hardpoint, minimize the size of the "extra" weapons and leave one whatever size works for the graphic. That way you only see one weapon. If you don't like the way a weapon looks and think a piece of jewelry works better, then minimize all the weapons so they aren't visible.

Occasionally I have been able to get items to "stack" on top of each other...they are actually cascaded a bit, but if zoomed out any amount you really can't tell. My guess is a real "fix" would be to allow multiple items to use the same hardpoint, with the last one the viewed item...or something similar.