Population Not Tied to Planetary Production or Research? Very Odd...

Population provides your tax base, and money-improvements increase this by a percentage, as in most 4X games.

Why, I wonder, are research and production not calculated the same way? As a strategy gamer, I am in favor of whatever makes for a more interesting game dynamic, not necessarily what it is the most "realistic." But the ability to buy 4 factories and a starbase on a planet, and then see that planet cranking out constructors or warships, when there are still only about 100 million people there, seems so implausible that I have to take note of it.

This game dynamic has suggested the following strategies to me - some of which may indicate that I am misunderstanding something, so please correct me if I get anything wrong.

1) Take the class 4 planet on turn 1. (Unless a better planet is also in range on turn 1) By doing this, you allow yourself to buy 2 factories on turn 1, and two more on turn 2, meaning you will start turn 3 with 4 factories. On turn 3, buy a starbase on your class 4 planet. Now use your home planet to build colony ships and your class 4 planet to build your constructors and any scouts you need for the opening territory grab.

2) Build money-improvements only on your worlds with the largest pop-caps. (It's a percentage, so it is less valuable on a world with a small population, but a factory or reseach improvement is worth the same anywhere.)

3) Only rarely should ever consider farming. Think about how to maximize the money you get from a world - you can raise the population with farming, or the multiplier with money-improvements. If you want to raise the population, you will probably need 3 tiles, since you will need 2 popularity improvements to offset the population. If you don't build them, your popularity will fall so low that you may have to lower the tax rate for your whole empire, thus more than counter-acting the bennefit of the higher population.

Instead, think about how much more money you would get from 3 money-improvements, (about 90%) without popularity penalty. Exceptions? Sure... If you have a planet of class 15 or so, and building a farm plus 2 popularity improvements doubles your population, you can then build 5 or 6 money improvements, all of which will be doing twice as much for your bottom line, and make up for the 2 popularity tiles that are not adding anything. Also, if you have a planet with a dramatic popularity bonus from some evil you comitted when landing, or from a single tile that you could improve, the dynamic changes a bit. But in general, I'm very anti-farming. Stay away from farming "bonuses" whatever you do - they only make the popularity issue worse.

Please punch holes in all of this if it will make me a better player - I welcome all thoughtful comments.
16,299 views 18 replies
Reply #1 Top
One thing of note is that research labs and factories don't really produce research/ships, they are simply structures which you can use to turn money into research/ships.

So yes, you can build a planet with 4 factories and 100 million population but unless you have the money to run 4 factories at 100% (via the spending slider) then the vast majority of the capacity is going to sit idle.

It's true farms aren't so useful though because the effect on morale is so significant. One strategy is to ensure that you're always several steps ahead in entertainment tech than you are in farm tech. Install entertainments first and only install/upgrade farms if the planet has good enough morale. It's also best to stay away from the tiles with %age food bonus as well unless you also can find a tile with a similar morale bonus.
Reply #2 Top
It's true farms aren't so useful though because the effect on morale is so significant.


Not sure why people think building farms is a bad idea - I always max out the population on all my planets and have 100% approval at 49% or 59% tax rate for the whole game. You do not need 2 morale buildings for every farm, I build 1 with the 2nd farm, and 2 with the third farm - no more ever, even on planets with the maximum 12 farms and 100 billion population (any PQ17+).

Increases tax revenue far more than a stock market does, makes your planets virtually un-conquerable, and provides a huge supply of invasion troops when you need them.
Reply #3 Top
Things change quite a bit with the 1.1 Beta patch. It may get tweaked before it's released, so take what I'm about to say with a grain of salt.

- Morale has become easier to keep high in general, making it plasible to maintain a high population on a planet without having to build a bazillion morale boosting structures.

- The economic model has been tweaked to increase tax flow.

- Citizens also don't mind taxes as much as they used to, making morale easier to keep up with higher tax rates.

- Since citizens now provide more tax money per capita, it's more efficient in 1.1 to use farms + morale buildings + bank structures to raise money as opposed to 1.09 where it seemed best to just build a bunch of banks and leave the population at 5 - 9 billion.

- Now that the population growth is at 3% instead of 20%, later in the game you need a couple of high population planets with good factory output to churn out troop transports. Pop growth doesn't cap out at 200 million until a planet has a base population of almost 7 billion. Combine this with the transports stripping off 1 or 2 billion each and you end up wanting a couple of 20+ billion pop planets to keep up with your invasion efforts.
Reply #4 Top
*bows to Magnumaniac's superior experience*

I'm impressed, though I don't know how you do it. I remember having one world where I built a farm on a 300% food bonus and had to install about 5 Zero G Sports Arenas to keep the morale above 40%. And that was with only a 35% tax rate or so, and with a +30 racial/political morale bonus *shrugs*.

edit: Noting Jim's comment, I'm talking about 1.0X here
Reply #5 Top
Only rarely should ever consider farming. Think about how to maximize the money you get from a world - you can raise the population with farming, or the multiplier with money-improvements. If you want to raise the population, you will probably need 3 tiles, since you will need 2 popularity improvements to offset the population. If you don't build them, your popularity will fall so low that you may have to lower the tax rate for your whole empire, thus more than counter-acting the bennefit of the higher population.


I have heard many people say this... Yet I find that I need fewer "popularity" improvements than I have farms. I usually go with a 2 morale buildings for every 3 farms. (I rarely use more than three farms.) Later in the game, after I have morale resourses and better morale building I usually take one or both morale buildings out.

I play the game completely differently than you, so you should remember that there are many viable ways to play. Try sometihg else, if the way you are playing feels tedious to you.
Reply #6 Top
Assuming you're not using the beta, this is a great link for what to put on your planets from a purely tax revenue point of view:

Link

To summarize, take the PQ of the planet, subtract 3 (2 factories and one starbase) and build one morale building for each farm. Fill the rest with stock markets:

PQ (Free Tiles) Farms

10-13 3 farms

14-17 4 farms

18-21 5 farms

22-25 6 farms

26-29 7 farms


Reply #7 Top
Sorry, didn't mean to muddy the waters by throwing 1.1 Beta stuff into the mix. Just wanted to note that things will likely change quite a bit when 1.1 is released for real.

With 1.0X, I experienced the same issues. Building more than 1 farm seemed worthless since my choices seemed to be have 2+ farms with a 49% tax rate to keep my citizens happy, or 1 farm with a 59% tax rate. Since citizens only generate cash, it seems to be a wash in the long run. Since the 1 farm + 1 or 2 morale buildings was more space efficient, I almost never had a planet with a population larger than 13 billion.
Reply #8 Top
though I don't know how you do it.


OK, to be fair, it is only really possible on huge or gigantic maps that will have 4+ morale resources available to keep it down to 3 entertainment buildings - more will probably be required in smaller galaxies.

The important thing to know is that the negative morale factor due to population is capped at -80, which usually happens at about 24-25 billion, so once you've got that under control you can slap up as many farms as you like without the need for any more VR Centers etc.

I haven't noticed too much difference with v1.1 regarding this, but am only on the 2nd game. The patch log does say that native morale bonus is changed back to 0.9 of actual from 0.8 in 1.0x (when it was nerfed from the original full bonus), so that may have an effect to make it appear easier to control.
Reply #9 Top
Just mentioning it because I haven't seen written here:

Lets not forget that influence is also derived from population. A stock exchange may (or may not) be the best way to get money and an embassy the best way to get culture but if you want bonuses to both the farm is your middle road.

Also, though I have no hard statistics just recollections of games past, it seems a planet with good population plus an embassy or two is FAR more influential than a planet with a half dozen embassy's and the base pop.
Reply #10 Top
In the beta, farms have become more important. They don't seem to have quite as drastic effect on moral and the tax dollars are important.

As for factories and research, if I build a factory or lab and have people to work in them, thay will produce independent of population but income is neccessary to keep them running.

I usually don't take the PQ 4 planet because it will never be a producer unless you have a huge bonus tile. Once you build a starport you only have 2 tiles left for factories and that it not much production. You need at least 5X factories to get high production. If the AI gets the pq 4 it will come back to me in due time and I will build 1 factory and 2 labs then I will overbuild the factory and set the planet for research only.

Of course the high PQ planets are your money makers and I build a lot of econ improvements but I always build at least a couple of factories so the planet can handle it's own defense.

I play as Populist plus elective moral bonuses and I go hard for all the mining resources so I never need to build more than one entertainment tile per planet.

In my last game I had over 500,000bc in treasury by the 6th year and I was ahead in every category except popularity. The bright Yor did eventually pass me in military and declared war but with my treasury and tech lead they never had a prayer.
Reply #11 Top
To quickly address the OP's original point, why do you need even 10 million people to operate some factories? If you have a population of 1 billion, that is more than enough workers to fill every manufacturing or research spot on the planet. Therefore, there's actually no reason why population should be directly linked to production. At a certain point, you have way more people than you need. Especially since this is a future game, and chances are a lot of production is handled by robots or other automatons. Personally, I like that population isn't the end-all-be-all like it was for MOO2.
Reply #12 Top
Yes, MOO2 was perhaps too population dependent.

Thanks everyone for the ideas. A lot of the problems of population seem to be off-setable by more ways than I had considered, but I generally play somewhat densely packed universes where it would just be foolish to expect to grab 4 morale resources.

Of course I understand the reasons for not taking the class 4 planet that Franco mentions, but in the games I play, the overwhelming bennefit seems to compensate - from turn 4, you have 2 starbases building ships, and you need them if you want to do a really quick grab. The alternative for me seems to be a lot of re-started games due to untenable starting planets.
Reply #13 Top
Population Not Tied to Planetary Production or Research? Very Odd...


It IS tied together.

Reply #14 Top
I think it makes a fair amount of sense. Simply put, you don't need that many people to run a factory with decent robotics technology, nor do a large number of people need to be scientists (compared to the overall population). Divorcing production and research from population is just a way to simulate this fact; you just have to assume that the scientists in your civilization's population go to science-focused planets and so forth.
Reply #15 Top
It IS tied together.


Not directly.

You're allowed to "overproduce", but you simply go into debt doing so. When you underproduce, you have surplus money. The two are linked in that one produces the quantity that the other requires, but there is no hard limit of, "You need X number of people to have Y factories" or something of that nature.
Reply #16 Top
It's only a game, but when I see production not linked to population, I liken that to how the U.S. has military bases--for example, Fort McPherson in Atlanta, or Fort Sam Houston in San Antonio. Very big population centers, yet small bases. Our military might isn't tied to San Antonio's population at all--it's tied to Fort Sam's capabilities. I don't sweat it.
Reply #17 Top
Tax income, when set to 100%, appears to be around 14bc/billion population. That's 7bc at 50% tax rate, or just a hair over 5bc at 36% tax rate.

A new colony has a pop cap of 5 billion, starting at 0.5 billion. Translating that into a sustainable 36% tax rate, thats about 2 bc per week to start, going up to 25bc at the pop cap.

Initial colony maintenance is 12bc/turn, bleeding 10bc per starter colony each week. For a starter colony to reach earn it's keep, it must have enough population to bring in 12bc, or about 2.38 billion at 36% tax rate.

The amount of people needed to reach the break-even point can be lowered by adding morale buildings, and thereby making it possible to increase the tax rate. For example, adding one Entertainment Network (+10%) allows a 10% increase in tax, to 46%, and bringing the balance point down to 1.86 billion. However, the 1bc maintenance fee just about cancels the bonus out.

The Economic buildings don't charge a maintenance fee, and so their bonus isn't cancelled. A +10% Market Center gives a direct increase to income, essentially producing the same result.
Reply #18 Top
I think it makes a fair amount of sense. Simply put, you don't need that many people to run a factory with decent robotics technology, nor do a large number of people need to be scientists (compared to the overall population). Divorcing production and research from population is just a way to simulate this fact; you just have to assume that the scientists in your civilization's population go to science-focused planets and so forth.


Exactly. Most production is automated, so it really doesn't need a large population to do the work.

However, you still need a market for what is produced, which is why you need to have people to pay for it. The rest of the economy, other than robotic plants, consists likely of services and certain goods which are personalised enough, not to be feasably made more or less entirely by robots.