Are we back in the age of consoles besting PCs?

Some more comments here...

Getting back to those requirements for Oblivion as an example, and my sample PC which was recently upgraded. I've seen the prices lately for high end PC video cards. SLI cards and even non-SLI cards that are easily the cost of an XBOX 360 premium package with a few games tossed in. Never mind needing a PC with a decent CPU and some memory to put that or those cards in. A PC gamer wanting a decent video card, or cards, is looking at spending approximately $400 - $800 on graphics cards alone. Figure about $800 - $1500 for the PC to install that card or cards in, and you're looking at $1200 - $2500 for a high-end PC.

When I do the math, I see I can get an XBOX 360 Premium system for $400, or get a system packaged/bundled with games, for between $600 and $1200. The graphics and performance is quite comparable to, if not exceeding the graphics and sound that will come out of the PC discussed above. Actually, in the case of the XBOX 360, you're able to use Hi-Def graphics and connect right up to an HDTV monitor/TV right away, which leaves gamers with some pretty jaw dropping graphics right out of the box.

Performance wise, the console system is obviously optimized for gaming. The CPU is designed for it, and the rest of the surrounding hardware is also optimized for it.

Again, it's just my opinion, but my believe currently is we are again, at least temporarily in the age of the console when it comes to gaming. I know the PS3 isn't out yet, and when it finally hits we'll really be in that age, at least temporarily.

The one thing that might preclude my hypothesis here would be a glut of PC only games, but that isn't likely something we'll see. We may see some great games (like GalCiv2 as an example) that are only available on PCs, but in most cases, the games are released on multiple platforms, including the current console hardware, and the few games that are only available on PCs are generally not something that the majority of the gamers would be that interested in.

Three words: World of Warcraft

Lots of mainstream console games are being ported for PCs, and I believe, at the rate PC technology is advancing, it will be cheaper to upgrade to be able to play the higher-end games. The reason I can say that: graphics technology is leveling off. The details are becoming more and more minute, and any developer will tell you, because of that, gameplay is going to be key more than ever. Graphics are coming to a standstill.

Also notice how consoles are working to become more PC-like.

I don't think so. Mainly because it has remained pretty constant that adults lean far more heavily toward PC games than kids... and kids grow up to be adults. Innovation will always be stronger in a venue where anyone can develop. Dealing with proprietary platforms always stifles what is available.

I'll probably buy the revolution when it comes out, mainly because I am a fan of some of the Nintendo franchises, but every other dime I spend will be on PC games. I think we aren't far from rebounding the other way, frankly. I don't see platforms making the necessary money to make up for the huge losses they are talking on the consoles. The only reason they are competing so well is that they are selling at a huge loss.

When they find it just doesn't pay the bills to sell a console for less than the video card they put in it, they'll rethink trying to out-PC PCs. I think Microsoft has this big idea that we are all going to shift away from PCs to appliances later, and teh XBox is just the first step. I think it's a gamble they are going to lose.

There is also the big fact that separates PCs from consoles - PCs can be used for more than just games.

Consider: would you honestly trust a console to write your term paper on? Or create 3d movie graphics? Or balance your checkbook? PCs have a greater degree of versatility that enables them to perform a bewildering variety of tasks, both creative and mundane, including some things that would literally choke a console, like movie-quality 3d modelling, skinning and rendering. The versatility and power of the PC is often used to justify the price of these machines, and rightly so - what other machine can do so much, and offer such freedom of control?

Well, there IS the argument about PCs versus Macs, but that's not a discussion I'd like to get into.

The point is, whether or not console games are at their zenith or their nadir, PCs will still endure...because they can do more than just games. After all, you don't expect Draginol to program Gal Civ III using an XBox, do you?

Three words: World of Warcraft Lots of mainstream console games are being ported for PCs, and I believe, at the rate PC technology is advancing, it will be cheaper to upgrade to be able to play the higher-end games. The reason I can say that: graphics technology is leveling off. The details are becoming more and more minute, and any developer will tell you, because of that, gameplay is going to be key more than ever. Graphics are coming to a standstill. Also notice how consoles are working to become more PC-like.

I've done the World of Warcraft thing myself for quite a while, along with friends. It was a fun game. Reminded me much of Diablo II originally, but eventually reminded me even more of it -- greed, greed, greed. That doesn't relate to the discussion at hand, so I'll leave that behind for now...

But, perhaps your point is in reference to MMORPGs in general - games like WoW, Star Wars Galaxies, Final Fantasy Online, EverQuest, and other similars ones? If so, then my answer would be that the console world is closing in on the PC there very quickly. Some of those games are available to console gamers, where they can play along with PC gamers, or at least play the same game.

I know there are a great many of those games, including City of Heros/Villians, and others. True, but then again there's Xbox Live, and Sony is planning their own Xbox Live style online gaming system when they (finally) release the PS3.

About graphics coming to a standstill, I don't think so. We might be seeing a plateau for a while, but eventually the graphics cards will start progressing again. I think we're far from a plateau currently. Like I stated in the original article, the costs of higher end cards are staggering. We keep seeing slightly newer variations of cards in the lower end, but the high end cards are not coming down in price currently.

first of all, they aren't selling at as much of a loss as you might expect, since they mass-produce a single graphics card in far greater quantities than pc ones are made. in the end, its cheaper to have a low-end pc and a new console, even though console games are too expensive these days, than a high end pc. EVEN IF you pirate all your games for pc. the reasons I stick w/ pc (unless halo 3 is less of a disappointment than halo 2) are the modding community for half-life2 (and hopefully oblivion and galciv2) and the fact that mouse and keyboard are simply better for shooters and strategy than a controller stick, end of discussion.
are mods really worth all that money?? imo, yes. modded morrowind is a joy to play, it is incomparably better than unmodded, which is all you can get on console. I am disturbed that microsoft plans to SELL mods over xbox live.
and btw mmorpgs can be played just fine on a console, its not like the control scheme is overly complicated

The point is, whether or not console games are at their zenith or their nadir, PCs will still endure...because they can do more than just games. After all, you don't expect Draginol to program Gal Civ III using an XBox, do you?

Actually, I'm gonna add in another comment from the quote in the reply above, about this:

Also notice how consoles are working to become more PC-like.

Again, this is part of why I think things might be shifting further to the side of the consoles. Consoles are becoming more like PCs. Though you can't use an Xbox 360 for browsing the web yet, I wouldn't be surprised to see a browser released soon. E-mail is already available within Xbox Live, though I've not seen a way yet to mail to someone outside of Xbox Live, that could be a future feature.

Microsoft and Sony are trying very hard to make console ubiquitous (spelling?). They know that they need to be seamless devices that are easy to use for multiple tasks, and they intend to make them boxes that are gateways to much bigger (and more profitable for them and their partners) worlds.

As to the question of whether I expect Draginol and company to program GalCiv for or on a console system, I expect the market will determine that for them. If they see a large gaming market there that they can take advantage of, then they may go in that direction. Much of the development work is done using development kits that aren't traditional consoles. The end game would be a console game, but the development takes place in or on a system that is a hyrbird between pc and console. The tools aren't that different if you are a programmer. I know it's not that close either, but it's not as if you would be starting the concept of programming from scratch.

One big disadvantage would be the relative (currently) inability to get patches for such games, but even that is changing in the console world to some extent. Patches do get written, and are released on systems like Xbox Live.

Its really hard to say where the market will head because different companies have different agendas. Sometimes the same company can have different agendas!!

Some argue that the PC is doomed because developers hate the added costs of developing for so many hardware configs, users prefer console gaming for its ease of use and multimedia companies want to crush it because it allows rampant piracy to occur. Additionally they would say that consoles are working to become more PC like so they can eliminate the PC altogether!

I'd disagree with that however because even if we have something like software watermarking which requires mandatory DRM chips in our PC's it's unlikely you would get a situation where you couldn't build your own PC due to the popularity of that market.

When was the original age of consoles "besting" pc's?

I guess instead of Mac v. Intel, pc v. consoles argument will have to make do for now. I bought the pc version of Oblivion, and am glad Bethesda primarily made it for the console. Face it, they were forced to release a great game that ran stable. If they just made it for the pc, it would be a buggy mess, just like when Morrowind first came out. I've played the game over 10 hrs. now without a single crash, no pauses or bugs.

I know Bethesda said they were going to put up mods for the Xbox 360 version on Live, but when?...probably when hell freezes over. Customer support nightmare. Meanwhile, we can go to TES right now and choose from over 80 different mods for the game.

The argument about graphic cards and pcs slowly topping off is definitely true. Five years ago, when the PS2 and Xbox comes out, people expected the PC of today to be pentium 6 pushing 8000 Mhz basing upon the changes from the previous 5 years, but that obviously hasn't happen, nor will it any time soon. The 'rapid' developement of the PCs have slowed down to a crawl from its earlier days, and now people are just releasing minute upgrades as opposed to drastic changes. On the other hand, the graphics industry has gone a long way in the last 5 years, with newer generation cards coming out every year or so, significantly better than their predesesors. The current battle between Nvidia and ATI is reminicent of Intel vs. Athlon a few years back, that has resulted in a lot of better toys for us. Though, they are definitely very expensive. It remains to question though, how long can this go on? I don't think we are going to see many new improvements for a while yet, simply because it seems like we've started to reach the limit that our current technology can provide. So unless someone discovers some new miracle methods, this 4 year old computer of mine will still be top of the line for many years to come if I just get the latest video card. (Maybe I should build some more research labs on earth and research the miniturization line... ah crap, too much GalCiv2 for me).

On the otherhand, this also means that consoles won't be going very much farther either, since they are dependant upon the technologies that the PC churn out. It's not so much that Consoles are besting PCs, it's just that they've started to become "PCs designed to play games." In a sense, the consoles are better because they are optimized just for this fact, and their cost reflects their ability to not do all the other things that a PC can.However, I KNOW that I'll always have a good PC around, just because I need it for all the thousand things I do with it aside gaming. On the other hand, since my PC can play the games, do I really need to buy the consoles too? What really gets to me is that in order to get the most out of the latest consoles, I would also need to set up a home theatre system that would probably cost twice my 'expensive' PC. So to me, consoles aren't that much better.

Added to this fact is that the games that I usually enjoy the most are ones that can be modded. There's just so much satisfaction in being able to tweak that one thing about the game that you have always hated. This alone, can make the game a thousand times better.

Its very simple for me...computer for work and consoles for playing. Why ? Because when i get home from work...i dont have the time or the will to Install/update the drivers...directx...then check compatibility issues...mount images etc...i just want to relax and play a little and nothing can compare to consoles in that case. Because in the console world PnP means "plug and play" vs "plug and pray" in the PC world.

PC gaming will always be ten times more expensive... but then remember, you get what you pay for.


It's pretty much that simple. If you can afford to keep up with PC technology, your gaming is going to be so, so much more "everything" than a relatively inexpensive console can be.

On a side note, the console tends to limit the community aspects of PC gaming.

How many gaming clans that have been around more than 5 years and have more than 100 legit members for consoles?
Now count the same communities for PC gamers.


You get what you pay for, its a fact of life

A couple of things to remember in this discussion:

1. Consoles that use Hi-Def also require you to own/purchase an extremely spendy HDTV, which significantly adds to the price of having one, something often overlooked by Console fanboy/owners, in these kinds of discussion, not to mention the ever-greedy bundle system when purchasing an all-new console, whereby game stores force you purchase a huge glut of crap with your console thus raising the overall price of the system as well. Shall we discuss the $60 games that rarely come with demos ahead of time or the inability to patch said games (this is changing but not rapidly enough to be a valid point in any discussion like this)...?

2. It really comes down to games. From my perspective the games are FAR better, FAR deeper, and better for multiplayer MOST of the time for the PC. I will concede that both types of platforms have their good games but overall, in most genres I find that the PC will have superior games (FPS, RTS, RPG, ADVENTURE, SIMULATION)...sure consoles have some sweet games too (Halo 1+2, God of War, Mario crap, RE games, etc...) but consoles still seem pretty limited to Platformers, Action games, and RPGs (mainly bizarrely translated Japanese ones, or the umpteenth iteration of Final Fantasy whatever who cares...LOL).

My brother has Oblivion with a fairly inexpensive videocard (sub $250) and the game looks spectacular he says. His system altogether costs like $1000 (including his old monitor which still works fine) which is easily equal to the cost of an X360 plus its requisite HDTV so I really don't agree that this is any sort of new age for consoles. Within a year of today, after the PS3 has been released for about 6 months or so, the PC will more than likely have already crept equal to OR even surpassed current 'next-gen' consoles in hardware power since our systems are upgradeable.

My biggest fear with consoles having the balance tipped their way, isn't that I might not get anymore PC games (Lord knows that I have a zillion to play still that I've never even touched yet since buying them, LOL) but that we'll get stuck with all the crappy Japanese games which imho just suck. Whatever innovation they could have taught us has been taught, all I see coming from Japan these days is repetitive boring anime-style drivel. YAWN.

Nuff said.

Because when i get home from work...i dont have the time or the will to Install/update the drivers...directx...then check compatibility issues...mount images etc...i just want to relax and play a little and nothing can compare to consoles in that case. Because in the console world PnP means "plug and play" vs "plug and pray" in the PC world.

And that is why PC gaming is destined to contract.

Eventually, what will happen is that so-called "professional" developers will abandon the PC. They will switch their development to consoles who have a much larger user base. Those who don't will be independent developers (like StarDock, MoonPod, etc) who don't need to sell 2 million copies to make back their development costs.

Look at how FPS games have exploded on consoles, despite the fact that dual-analog control is significantly inferior to mouse control. Console gamers want most of the kinds of games you find on PCs. The only barrier to entry has been the lack of appropriate User Interface devices. Both PS3 and 360 have USB ports for you to plug mice and keyboards into. And Rev comes with a very interesting mouse to use. So the trend is going to continue, if not accelerate.

If they end up with the anti-used game protections that have been patented, that will completely and utterly negate this advantage of consoles.

Personally, I use both consoles and PC games. The upside to PC games is all of the independant games and games with more advanced interfaces, the downside to them is the cost of game related upgrades, the copy protection that makes PCs much less useful for other tasks when they're installed, and uneven performance between systems.

The advantage that PCs have over consoles of more advanced mobile graphics (laptops) is largely negated by the paranoia of the PC industry and their cd copy protection.

You also have to consider that Console Software and Games are developed on a PC itself. Again, as previously stated above PC's aren't slated toward a specific use, they are much more versatile, which explains such steep prices for hardware. And the fact that developers of consoles are trying to widen the capabilites of consoles to be more PC like (since PC's are so versatile) must show that PC's are superior to a console system in many respects, consoles could never claim absolute superiority.

Also, from your post I assume you mean superior in the idea of market price and not performance and graphics. Performance and graphics wise the PC will always be superior.

If ultimately consoles are to become more PC like and versatile than to simply play games, expect there market value to rise higher than the $300-$400 per unit price.

That really makes no sense about microsoft if you know anything about Vista - which will support DX10 when it comes out, what with the new physic chips being applied to graphics cards, and on top of that the new dx 10 graphic chips, and with Vista supporting its own gaming platform, there is no way MS are thinking people will move from pc's to the xbox, microsoft want a 2 pronged attack on sony, they want to take the market completely and that means supporting the pc market and the xbox market.

Microsoft are trying to make it easier for companies to use pc's for games - by launching Vista's gaming platform, if it ever comes out.

Personally i think the consoles are good for generic games - while pc games tend to be more innovative. There are always swings in the which is better argument, when a new console comes out suddenly the consoles are the best, give it a whole year and technology will have moved on, suddenly the easily upgradable pc will suddenly be better to have. It is the same argument that happened when the ps2 and xbox came out, I honestly went out and bought the ps2, and since it came out i have gone out and bought a large total of 2 games for it.

I might buy the xbox 360 but only for one game - starcraft ghost, other than that, i don't see the point considering i have a very high spec'ed pc..

What does annoy me about the xbox 360 and xbox- is that it runs games via direct x - which is the same as on the pc, but they won't allow pc users to use x-box games, Which is a shame as most people have spent large amounts of money on a high end pc. As there are a few games that i would want to play on the pc that are out on the xbox 360.

But using Oblivion is pretty poor reason to back xbox 360 users, when first of all the game is better with a mouse and keyboard, and when the pc moves onto the next stage in graphics, it will kick the xbox 360 into touch. when it comes to this particular game.

Not sure if someone has already said this, but the thing that really draws me to console gaming over PC is the fact that when I put the game in the system, it's going to work. I'm not going to run in to some compatibility issues or get some crazy error message. Even with galciv2, it took me a day and a half to get my computer to run it (outdated driver that isn't supported by the manufacturer anymore). I used to have a great, top of the line system, but PCs get outdated so fast, it's not worth the money to upgrade them. It's just frustrating that PC game designers try to make the coolest, cutting edge games but you need a $4,000 Alienware computer to play them. For strategy games, you really don't have a choice, it's PC all the way. But almost any other genre, it's console hands down. Just one guy's opinion

Personally I much prefer PC's. The games are usually modable, more complex, mouse aiming is far more accurate than joystick aiming, I use my PC for other things, and the games for the most part are more innovative partly because the ease of creating a PC game compared to a console game. That being said, my consoles have a big screen HDTV to play on, cost less, and in the 360 are moving to a much more integrated online experience.

As for copy protection, I forsee an increase in copy protection measures on consoles as they become both more modable, more popular, and their games become more desirable. Maybe not in the current generation of consoles (the 360, ps3) but perhaps the next gen expect to see something like starforce come out for consoles and even perhaps the need to update drivers as consoles become more and more online based systems capable of actually being upgraded.

This thread is a joke, trying to compare a PC to a Games Console is like trying to compare a modern Aegis cruiser to a war world 2 cruiser. The ww2 will always out gun the Aegis in terms of firepower, but the Aegis will rip it a new one in a proper battle. Why because it is basic around an advance form of combat that doesn't rely on actually see the enemy. The Aegis could sit 20 miles away radar lock via GPS and missile it into dust.

This is the same with PCs, all game consoles are are fancy graphic cargs a cheap CPU and a bit of ram. All it can do is run games. Thats all it is meant for, anything else and it starts to grind. A PC on the other hand is versitile to the extreme, not only is it module in design but its core programs offer a variety of different applications other than just games. We have all seen how bad consoles are at doing anything other than games. I've seen just recently how poor the internet is handled on a PSP. Though of course it is impressive that it can do it at all. Looking at game console evolution, it is clear that they are evolving more and more towards PCs rather than moving down their own path. Most next generation consoles now are designed purposely to be versitile like the XBOX360, allowing internet connection, online gaming, and utilization of a hard drive. In my opinion, they will never beat a PC simply because to beat it is to become it.

Long live the PC.

Last time I checked GalCiv2 wasn't developed on a games console Another reason why PCs are better.

/quote What does annoy me about the xbox 360 and xbox- is that it runs games via direct x - which is the same as on the pc, but they won't allow pc users to use x-box games, Which is a shame as most people have spent large amounts of money on a high end pc. As there are a few games that i would want to play on the pc that are out on the xbox 360.
/quote

This absolutely not true. The XBox uses a very modified version of DX that is basically not compatible at all with PCs. Sepcifically, it's memory management for video and DSP management for Audio are nothing like the PC version.

This is absolutely not true. The XBox uses a very modified version of DX that is basically not compatible at all with PCs. Sepcifically, it's memory management for video and DSP management for Audio are nothing like the PC version.

Also, you'd be suprised at how well PCs run games if you set them to the quality of the consoles (the Xbox360 does 1280x720 at maximum...)

As long as we're talking about games here, consoles have been winning the battle for a few years now. Sure every now and then we get a truly remarkable PC game (HL2, GalCiv 2, Oblivion), but consoles just get a lot more love from publishers/developers, and the controller allows for games such as Ninja Gaiden, Viewtiful Joe, God of War, as well as any number of platform games and fighting games that could never work with a standard keyboard/mouse setup. There's also the fact that now with the 360 being out and the PS3 on the way, the hardware limitations apparent in the old systems are no longer apparent (at this time) and it will allow developers to work more freely in creating a great gaming experience.

And on a completely different, yet mostly similar subject, we have Nintendo. Nintendo continues to do what they've been doing for years - make fun games. They took a risk with the DS, and right now its flourishing in terms of sales, and has a great number of excellent games available for it, with even more coming out on a fairly regular basis. Now with their upcoming Revolution, they're taking a HUGE risk in that they will basically be alienating the standard user base, but in turn they are opening up a whole new world of accessability and innovation. Nintendo is the only company that still believes in making GAMING systems and not media centers with an emphasis on gaming (keep in mind Katarugi's insistant claim that the PS3 is NOT a gaming machine); hell, just look at the PSP! Hooray, I can buy movies in a tiny useless disc format and watch them on a system whose batteries will die out about 30 minutes after the movie ends, never mind the screen that has the worst response time I have ever seen for an LCD display and the anemic gaming library full of ports and remakes in which the most noteworthy games were released at launch (Wipeout, Lumines)... but I digress.

The fact of the matter is there is life in both the PC market and the console market, and though the PC gaming scene is moving much slower than console scene, it still has some killer titles coming to it (Spore, UT2k7, Quake Wars). If I had to choose between buying a PS2 and buying a $600 video card, I'd pick the PS2, but thats just me - the fact of the matter is you can still buy that PS2 and have enough left over to buy a mid-range video card that will still allow you to enjoy most games assuming you have the proper cpu and memory. If you really enjoy games, there is no reason to choose one over the other, and certainly no reason to blindly attatch yourself to PC gaming simply because they have the ability to look prettier, you demand keyboard/mouse control in everything, and/or you foolishly believe console games are "for kids."

we'll get stuck with all the crappy Japanese games which imho just suck. Whatever innovation they could have taught us has been taught, all I see coming from Japan these days is repetitive boring anime-style drivel. YAWN.

So you're saying you prefer the hojillionth GTA clone, poor mindless action game, or pretty much anything coming out of EA? Because the world really needs another Madden that is practically identical to the last game which really wasnt that great to begin with.

Because the world really needs another Madden that is practically identical to the last game which really wasnt that great to begin with.

Hey, the names on the jerseys are different. Some of the players are even on different teams! Also, the commercials hyping each annual installment are updated each year... I think.