The Suicide Beholder problem

or the lack of diplomatic options

from GalCiv2 Forums
...option (continued from the subtitle)

Ok the subject is a little confusing. It refers to an article about bad DMing (the act of playing as a refree in a Role-Playing game) in AD&D I read some time ago . It pictured a party of adventurers confronting a dangerous beholder (a magical creature). Once the monster got to the point where it was clear it had no ways of defeating the attacking adventurers, the DM had it commit suicide (through disintegration!) to spoil the players' rightly earned experience reward (frustrating!).
The AI in GalCiv2 plays exactly the same. When it turns clear that it has no chance to confront the player fleets anymore it will "commit suicide" by surrendering to ANOTHER race.
How silly is this? Try to picture a 1944 Germany suddenly surrendering to Swiss federation giving away all its territory, resources and remaining armed forces... Is this a believable scenario?
I've seen the AI lightly-hearted surrender to races with which it shared a history of prolonged and bitter warfare, just to spoil the player's conquest...

This is terribly frustrating when a defeated faction cedes control of its homeworld to my best trade partner...
This leads me to another consideration: the array of diplomatic options is way too short. The old Master of Orion 2 and Space Empires 4 offer a lot more of them.

A losing faction cannot offer any prize to buy a quarter or a peace treaty. There is no way to impose to a menaced faction tributes (like "cede control of this starbase, this fleet or this colony") or a special political subjugation state (like a protectorate or something similar).
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Reply #1 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I would certainly like to see the surrender behavior tweaked a little. It seems like the race that is surrendered to is random, and it shouldn't be. The AI should either surrender to the faction that they have the best relations with, or if they don't have any friends they should just surrender to the attacking faction or one of that faction's enemies.

At first I was under the assumption that the AI surrenedered to its friends. In a recent game vs 9 intelligent opponents, the Arceans had no friends and were in a long but losing war with the Drengin. They hit me up for some money, which I gave them. I then started periodically giving them starships, technology, and more money. They worshipped me by the time they surrendered (and I was the only reason they held out as long as they did), but when they finally went down they turned their empire over to another faction. Ungrateful punks! From here on I'll only give ships to a losing faction if I want to bleed their enemies without having to fight them myself.

Here's for more diplomatic options, too. I have a really varied style of gameplay where I use diplomacy, influence, and conquest in equal measure to win, and being able to push people around diplomatically would really complement my style of play and enhance the game for me. I'm sure the people who ignore their military to focus purely on diplomacy would like more options to stave off their destruction than just begging for a peace treaty.
Reply #2 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
The AI in GalCiv2 plays exactly the same. When it turns clear that it has no chance to confront the player fleets anymore it will "commit suicide" by surrendering to ANOTHER race.


It's not just doing it to the player, it does it to other AI as well.

Probably the most annoying thing is when the AI surrenders to you without warning or reason. It doesn't sound so bad but in my most recent game, my Yor civilisation were peacefully streamlining their economy in the bottom corner of the map when the Torians, who I had had a brief scrap with earlier but was at peace with suddenly decided to hand over all their worlds to me. This was a problem as I hadnt built or started any of my capitals yet. I got all their capitals which meant I couldnt put them where I wanted them. Theirs were in chronically bad places. On top of that, the reason why they must have given up was because they were totally bankrupt!!! Once I got their worlds, I went from 250bc income to minus 200!!

That took quite a while to sort out..... just when I got myself back into the black again, the Terrans handed me their worlds.... surrounded by Altarian fleets who I was at war with. This led to a protracted war with me cranking out endless basic Defenders from the old Terran worlds just to stave off the incoming transports. On top of that, the Terran worlds pushed me way into defecit again.

Some 40 or so turns later, with my economy kicking back in again, I then got the Thalan worlds. All of these races handed over to me with no real reason. I wasn't at war with them, I wasn't even particularly friendly with most of them.

The Torians hated me from the earlier war and my ethics - they weren't even at war with anyone when they gave up.... or if they were they hadnt lost a planet and there were no alien fleets around their territory.

The Terrans were neutral to me but had good relations with many other civs - they quit because the Altarians were all over them, so fair enough there.

The Thalans at least felt close to me - but as usual, they had the same feeling for most of the races (those lovable beetles!) and were having a very minor skirmish with the Korx who hadnt taken any of their planets.


So, while I like the idea in principle, I would like to see this tuned a bit. The AI should fight harder before giving up.... it shouldn't quit until it has a critical position that is totally irreversable. It should do anything first to get out of its hole diplomatically - offering everything for peace or everything for war to another AI or the human.

Hell, even if they turned round to you and said, if you fight the Altarians we will give you all our planets, do you agree? With a yes no option. If you select no, they could go round the other AI. Something more complex than the current quit and dump all their worlds on the unsuspecting recipient.
Galactic Civilizations III
Reply #3 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
At the same time (playing devil's advocate here) if the AI just kept building ships to feed to the winning force until all their worlds were conquered, you'd see some really high level ships flying around after so much target practice. To prevent that, some sort of surrender needs to take place instead of just fighting to the death.

Your suggestions are good, and I'm just noting that a fight to the death might bring some unexpected consequences.
Reply #4 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Your suggestions are good, and I'm just noting that a fight to the death might bring some unexpected consequences


Absolutely. That's why I dont advocate removing this feature - too many games you have to kill every last worker/scout/grandmother knitting at home before you defeat the AI.

What I want is just a little more staying power from the AI before it flops. Maybe with some of the AI more or less likely to quit - someone like the Yor might just never quit, while looking sideways as the Torians might make them hand over everything to you! Joking, but you get the drift.

I'd also like to see some more determination based on race. Given what happened to the Torians, why would they ever choose to surrender to the Drengin? Or the Iconians to the Yor or even the Drath to the Altarians. In those circumstances the Torian AI should die fighting rather than surrendering to certain torture and slavery from the Drengin.

I can definitely see this being worked on in the future once we get to a point where minor things are being polished.

It definitely is not a major problem I just want to say for the record, but one where more immersion could be gained from a few tweaks.
Reply #5 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
on a related note, prior to patching to 1.1 this evening, I experienced a wierd bit of AI somewhat related to the surrender bit the OP mentioned. I was mainly going for a tech victory and thanks to helping nudge everyone into fighting everyone except me through most of the game, I was way way way ahead on the tech tree.

The Drath were to my north, Korx to my south, and the drath were (slllloooooowwwwwllllyyyyy) cawling across my empire with a huge fleet to kill off my rather nice economy starbase lined traderoute I had going with the Korx. Since the Korx seem to generally be pretty good neighbors for me, I built a fleet of warships, scattered them along through the drath fleet, and then crushed his armada in about 2 turns. At that time, my military might was about 250, the drath went from about 200 to 180, Torx were high 90's, Terrans. I swept through the drath territory, flattened his army down to a rating of somewhere in the teens, took 2 planets (out of about 30), and he begged me for peace.

I decided to let him have peace and rebuild his destroyed economy (i destroyed every one of his starbases and mining platforms), but left my fleet in place because of how aggressive they had been.

A few turns later I get a message about how my massive troop buildup on his border is making him uncomfortable and shortly after he declares war on me. It was really odd since I had all the planetary invading ships all ready and was able to take all but about 10 planets in the northwest corner before he surrendered to the thalan . Would love some option between ignore them and wait for them to attack me::crush their army like a bug and watch them get all pissy when I keep a watchful eye over them to make sure they aren't going to attack me.
Reply #6 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I like the way surrendering works at the moment. Had a couple of races surrender to me when I was at war with them, 2 surrendered to my enemies and 1 surrendered to me when being killed off by another computer. All of this hapenned on a huge map when I was going for a conquest victory on Bright. So it's all good.
Reply #7 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
There are two aspects of Multi-player games like Civ IV that I hate. The most annoying is when you play against someone that is simply an ass. Those players who spout off political hate, racial hate, religous hate. The second is when a player just drops out when he feels he is in a losing situation and surrenders his cities, country, people and pride to a third party. It is not realistic. Did the Confederate States of America surrender to Great Britian? Germany to Sweden? National China to the US? Byzantine to Venice? Can anyone give any example of a nation or people surrendering to a third party when the chips were down, and if so, was this recognized by the attacking party as legitimat? We have a single player game that has incorporated one of the worst aspects of multiplayer, I hope it is fixed. It is a great game. Not trying to put it down, it is just a big deal was made about why it would be a single player game then we have this.
Oh BTW, maybe Hungry to Austria to stave off the Turks? I do not think Turkey and Hungry were at war though and it was more of a unification then surrender I believe. I do not really know my facts on this example. Sorry.
Reply #8 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Sometimes its really hard to understand the decision of the AI. Had some nice game which had basically boiled down to 6 Civs. The Drengin were constantly at war with everyone but me, so i supported them with a nice steady flow of ships and they really loved me for that... (virtual hugs anybody?... doh). Anyways they were going down just as i expected and they finally surrendered.... to the Altarians! The Drengin (evil...or so i thought) surrendered to the Altarians (their main "good" opponent in the war)... really made me wonder
Reply #9 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I look at it this way, it makes the game (and getting a conquest) victory a little bit harder since you can't expect the civ you are beating the tar out of to just fight you to the last man or roll over an surrender.

One thing that i think would be a good idea though, is a option to refuse the addition of a crumbling empire. "Um hey there emperor, we are getting our space butts kicked, the economy is in shambles, we have no military and there are 3 races at war with us, here take our stuff"

and you reply, "uhh no thanks, I have a large enough ghetto already"
Reply #10 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Can anyone give any example of a nation or people surrendering to a third party when the chips were down, and if so, was this recognized by the attacking party as legitimat?


Bonjour Monsier.

And I don't mean this in a rascist sense, the GAME agrees with me. Get into an alliance with the Arceans, get into a war with someone, and buy peace

"So, what can we do for out cheese eating surrender monkey allies today?"
Reply #11 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Bonjour Monsier.

And I don't mean this in a rascist sense, the GAME agrees with me. Get into an alliance with the Arceans, get into a war with someone, and buy peace


You don't know much about history, do you?
Reply #12 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
You don't know much about history, do you?


Actually, yes I do. I honestly didn't mean to be rascist or offensive, the question was has anyone ever had to surrender before they REALLY got smashed to save their people? yes, France did. They were being hit very fast, and surrendered so the wouldn't have to have their people killed.
I apologise if it looked different, but thats the facts of it.

And the second bit, is a direct quote in the game. Go to conversations.xml and look up "cheese eating"
Which is a rather unflatering nickname France got, for saving their people.
Reply #13 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
id the Confederate States of America surrender to Great Britian?


No, but if you go back a bit further, there is a reason why the Americans didn't invade Canada after they finished their own revolutionary war.
Reply #14 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
No, but if you go back a bit further, there is a reason why the Americans didn't invade Canada after they finished their own revolutionary war.


Actually, they *did* tried to invade Canada during the revolutionnary war, but they lost a battle at Quebec, when they attacked in a snowstorm, and got their army decapitaded by a lucky cannon shot. The remaining 3700 troops without leader could not stand to the 150 defending soldiers (most of them drunk, 'cause it was 31 December, and they were celebrating New Year)
Reply #15 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Actually, they *did* tried to invade Canada during the revolutionnary war, but they lost a battle at Quebec, when they attacked in a snowstorm, and got their army decapitaded by a lucky cannon shot. The remaining 3700 troops without leader could not stand to the 150 defending soldiers (most of them drunk, 'cause it was 31 December, and they were celebrating New Year)


from what I remember though, Great Brittan cut Canada loose rather than risk losing it to the americans or having to fight over it. Not quite the same as giving up territory to another nation, but plitting it off into it's own territory and letting it be it's own nation i pretty close . Granted i'm not that big on canadian history, there could have been more to it than that, it's just something that came to mid as a similar example happening.
Reply #16 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I have always found *when* a losing empire surrenders to be about right - when momentum is well and truly with the attacker, but before worlds start falling like dominoes. In Alpha Centauri, although the AI would surrender before being annihalated, you still had to beat it back to it's last few cities, which could still be tedious. What could use some improvement, as has been stated, is measures taken by the AI before this critical point is reached. I have never had a losing empire make me a last ditch offer to join their war, or offered me a couple of worlds for peace if I'm the aggressor. It is not so much that the AI gives up too easily, but that they don't take drastic enough action when they still have a fighting chance.
Reply #17 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
from what I remember though, Great Brittan cut Canada loose rather than risk losing it to the americans or having to fight over it.


No, that's not what happened at all. Canada didn't gain any kind of real independence until 1867, and the ties to the empire were still very strong even then. It was more than a century after that before we even got around to writing our own constitution.

The reason Canada isn't part of the US isn't because it was spun off as some neutral party. Basically, the US bungled the invasion in 1812.
Reply #18 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
No, that's not what happened at all. Canada didn't gain any kind of real independence until 1867, and the ties to the empire were still very strong even then. It was more than a century after that before we even got around to writing our own constitution.

The reason Canada isn't part of the US isn't because it was spun off as some neutral party. Basically, the US bungled the invasion in 1812.

hmm ok, not sure where I got that idea then.
Reply #19 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Why surrender the whole empire? Why not just give up a few border planets to gain an ally strong enough to hold them and provide a buffer zone.

They certainly shouldn't surrender their whole empire while they still have their homeworld and most of their colonies.

They need some type of negotiated surrender rather than total surrender. A defeated enemy could be a self governing protectorate.
Reply #20 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Actually, yes I do. I honestly didn't mean to be rascist or offensive, the question was has anyone ever had to surrender before they REALLY got smashed to save their people? yes, France did. They were being hit very fast, and surrendered so the wouldn't have to have their people killed.
I apologise if it looked different, but thats the facts of it.


Looking for a nation that surrendered to a third party. France surrendered to their attacker, Germany. This doens't count. I do not think an example can be provided.
Reply #21 from Stardock Forums Top
Looking for a nation that surrendered to a third party. France surrendered to their attacker, Germany. This doens't count. I do not think an example can be provided.



Well... when japan surrendered to the U.S., didn't some of their protectorate went for the R.U.S.S? As I remember, the R.U.S.S. was a little too busy with the Germans to really attack the Japaneses.