it's funny how everyone else is a "fanboi" but the guy who complains loudest is somehow being objective. to disagree with a complainer is to be a fanboy i guess. there is no inbetween.

i just did a quick gamerankiings check: http://www.gamerankings.com/itemrankings/simpleratings.asp

galciv2 is the third highest rated game in the past half year. only civ 4 got higher and fear barely edged it out. and what version of the game did they review? the 1.0 version.

i had no problems witih 1.0 and 1.0x made the game even more fun with little changes. 1.1 is looking very exciting to me and i can't wait to try it out.

people should appreciate the hard work that stardock didn't have to do. the game's already looking like strategy game of the year as-is. 1.1 looks like it has more new features than the typical expansion pack for other games.

I'll confess that I'm curious about how some of the changes will affect gameplay. I'm willing to accept that some of the changes I won't like, and since they're mixed in with bug fixes, I'll just need to live with it.

But so what if you change the ground rules while searching for better balance? Nerfing and balancing is part of practically any game these days, online multiplayer or offline single-player.

So please, keep squashing the bugs, and by all means, heap on the additional content and play mechanics.

The metafore above is flawed perhaps in that it would be better served as a pay-in-advance buffet. Sit and eat as much as you like. What's at the buffet table will change, and your favorites might disappear, or be seasoned differently from time to time. But the changes are being made to improve the overall experience for as many people as possible.

So, I paid my $40, and I've enjoyed the appetizers and courses. They were exactly what I was lead to believe I would receive. And then you told me there were other dishes coming. Please keep serving them up, and my compliments to the cook so far!

Chuck,

Minor races haven't been nerfed. I'm not even sure what you're talking about. The only change is that they don't start out with so much money. But they're still there.  We added an option to disable them. Users don't have to use that option.

You are entitled to your own opinions on what state you think the game was/is/willbe in.  Others, however, are entitled to disagree.  To assume you speak for some silent majority though really seems like a stretch. 

Looks like someone didn't get his nappy today. My two-year-old couldn't handle the amount of cheese found in that post, and she practically lives on the stuff.

I know that GCII isn't perfect. Part of the reason I can enjoy it as much as I do now is the fact that I know more updates are planned, and that a few of the Stardock staff actually maintain a presence in the forums and engage in dialog with users. Maybe my experience with other games and game publishers has colored my judgement, but to me these are highly positive signs, not a reason to whine. I suppose it really depends a lot on your previous gaming experience. Here's an example:

There's a series of games called Total War that I originally loved. I bought the first one five years ago and played it steadily for two years. There were a couple of patches and a few developers occasionally appeared in the forums. Then the next title came out, and it was pretty good. The devs still showed up in the forums once in a while, but their typical response to user requests was to ignore them. Completely.

Then, the third title came out. Some of the elements were reminiscent of its predecessors, but basically the whole game had been dumbed-down and tricked out with eye candy to appeal to a wider audience. Virtually nothing that the players really wanted was in the game, and the mods' response to bug reports in the forums increasingly turned to blaming the players for the problems they encountered. Requests for features were ignored, except when they were being belittled.

I watched their forums for a while to see what would happen next. Next, in the case of this series, is shaping up to be a rehash of the last game with even more fancy graphics and even less connection to anything remotely historical. Fortunately, one of the other forumites there mentioned GCII. I came here, saw what was going on, and decided almost immediately to try it.

Sure, GCII has a few things I don't like and one or two things that drive me berserk (auto focus, anyone?) But overall I find myself actually wanting to play all the way through to the end of the game - repeatedly - which is a huge leap forward from my Total War experience. I see a company that supports its product and its ongoing development at an almost fanatical level and responds to at least some customer requests, which is also a refreshing change.

In short, I have a game that's good now; it's supported by a company that listens to its customers; and it will get even better or, at the very least, continue to change in some ways, which alone would increase replay value. The last Total War game completely lost its replay value for me after about five months. Which is scary, considering I have an hour or maybe two a day to play anything.

If the release-game-and-update-periodically-while-maintaining-ongoing-dialog-with-players model distresses you, I encourage you to try other publishers' games, or just go and visit their forums. Especially after the game has been out for a month or so and people start to notice more and more problems.

For a recent lesson in the nerfing world see how many people walked off star wars galaxies because of repeated and vast mechanics changes

Ouch. That was mean. Are you saying you fully expect people to leave purely because a game made replayable because it's difficult without cheating, is being made more difficult? I fail to see the logic. This should bring MORE people if anything, especially with all the new content again.

The iconians telling me I would need to talk to walter montgomery if I wanted them to have peace was pretty hilarious

Here I agree with you. It's so much fun to see a race that by design has no techs or ability to invade, beat up a research orientated powerful major civ. But that again is the point: minor < major. Minors should be bugs to be crushed. Well, squirrels in some cases (DAMN THAT SNARKY! ) Not something you go to, begging for the next tech before he lets everyone else have it. Anyway, they weren't even nerfed!

galciv2 is the third highest rated game in the past half year

And why? word of mouth. Can you imagine what would have happened if they had gone nuts on the advertising? It probably would have tipped civ4. This has to show the quality of the game. Let's face it: cheese or tomato, it's a damn good game and it's still getting better.

FrogBoy,

I'd just like to add myself to the list of people who haven't had any problems with the game, think it's great, and really appreciate the support you provide. It's very frustrating that people assume that because you continue to support the game after release, it must have been unfinished when you released it. It clearly wasn't, judging not least from all the amazing reviews V1.0 got. Compared to just about every other software developer who release clearly imperfect games and then just go quiet and move on, you guys are absolutely amazing.

I hope you don't let threads like this get to you and your time, it's important to remember that unhappy people are enormously more vocal than happy people.

For a guy who doesn't know how to use paragraphs, WTFChuck sure casts a lot of stones. Hint: Game mechanics you don't agree with aren't bugs. Hint #2: Claiming the game had 10 major bugs while only being able to list the single one that FB mentioned doesn't help your case. For the record: The game has worked flawlessly for me.

First I am fully aware of the difference, but thanks. I am complaining about game mechanics changes AND noting there are some bugs, now I have added bugs that still exist. Here are my early ones I can remember.

I listed 2. The update exploit is a second bug (the one where you simply build one improvment on top of another just started improvement and severly cut build times). I found 10 though:

-One, was personel. I have a built in video card that simply could not handle the movies. The driver was fine I checked that (I simply zipped the movie folder and used the images instead, which work fine but in the second update I unzipped my movies and bam they worked, like a whole new game). That is my computer though, Its very ancient december 2005 model which could not handle new games (this was not the first with problems).

-The fleeting of ships did not work properly (no one else except the 40 others who complained about it experienced it?) it would randomly not fleet my ships from game 1. Save and reload was a viable workaround.

-This one is still here with the last update but I experienced it first on my third campaign (which was about 2.5 hours so doesn't fit in my 20 minutes but what the heck it's still there and the fanboy wanted bugs. Randomly I cannot build a starbase more then 3 parsecs, save and reload fixes this. And still there.

- Autosave/quicksave/regular save were crashing the game, completely random, made a corrupt save file I could not use, fixed in the first update.

- The invasion cheese, you will find I complained about this on the forums, I experienced that one in the first game. (fixed last update)

- The UP starbase tax (complained about this one, being fixed in this update), the UP volcanic world (complained, not addressed in the fix list that I saw so I guess this one waits a patch). (I'll count those as one)

- The minor races (or any race for that matter) not using gift ships. Not sure but randomly minor races use ships and major almost always now so it must have been fixed. I thought maybe the minors were just too stupid.

- The Planet Quality racial bonus ups the planet number but doesn not increase habitable squares (While the random event "precursor device" does increase squares and quality number). Feature or something not working right I don't know.

- Custom racial bonuses randomly doubled in each selected catagory. Logistics would keep doubleing over and over.

This is 10 right? Not counting brads mentioned one which I gave more info on, it was a twopart bug. One part was that you could not save, after exiting GNN you got a question then if you wanted to save if you clicked yes it crashed the game. (that is part two).

All off the top of my head. Now read the bug forums; 75% of those I saw myself before they were fixed. Thanks.

WTF_Chuck, sorry but you're just one of those miserable people who make nice forum communities suck for everyone. You really think 3 out of 4 people who played GalCiv 2 had a bad experience? You're insane.

Sorry to mess up your nice forum, but it is for everyone who shelled out 40 bucks to own the game, I think there is a my little pony forum where people might not discuss actual bad things about the ponies. I would say re-read my post but basically I want you to know I did not use the number 3 out of 4. I did say I experienced 3-4 bugs, also I was saying if you experienced a bug you had a bad experience. Not that you totally hate the game and want to kill yourself for buying it. Most of my experiences with gal civ 2 (note I consider it multiple experiences) were good... some were bad. I have therefore had bad experiences. On that reasoning I said a high number of people would have had bad experiences. Get me yet Mr. Pony?

bah! This is whining at its finest. You have to change a sure-fire-win-every-game-strategy? Cry me a river.

Holy troll batman. What was your point? I like my strategy, whether that means it is win every time (which incidently had nothing to do with it but I address that above) I didn't want it drastically changed. By the way please try to update your mental cliches to not include expressions that were played out when my grandmother was in 3rd grade (Cry me a river) it detracts from your ever so important message.

And I love galciv2 yes yes. Very good game. I mean I hope you don't need to keep hearing that but if you do please tell me I will start every post with it. I do not want to discourage efforts to improve. Also I should clairfy that I do not think this is a bad game got that?.

Brad:
I don't claim to speak for a silent majority. I appologize if it came off that way. I think everyone misunderstood that I was saying everyone, practically speaking, must have had some bad experience. How could they go through this game after release and not see at least one of these bugs?? That is all I meant. not that everyone or mostly everyone hated the game which is obviously wrong. I get the feeling very few are displeased with thier purchase and I am certainly not amoungst that lot. I have played the hell out of it and would be now if I wasn't engaged here!
The minor race change was that there are now so many less of them when you play. I get like three in a gigantic map and smallest size. I am mourning this loss hard.

Okay... I'll bite:

-One, was personel. I have a built in video card that simply could not handle the movies. The driver was fine I checked that (I simply zipped the movie folder and used the images instead, which work fine but in the second update I unzipped my movies and bam they worked, like a whole new game). That is my computer though, Its very ancient december 2005 model which could not handle new games (this was not the first with problems).

In other words, not their bug.

-The fleeting of ships did not work properly (no one else except the 40 others who complained about it experienced it?) it would randomly not fleet my ships from game 1. Save and reload was a viable workaround.

Never experienced it. Not saying you did something wrong but hardly a show stopper or something that "could have easily been found". I was in the beta. So were thousands of others. Obviously not so easy to find and nothing more significant than you see in half the other games out there.

-This one is still here with the last update but I experienced it first on my third campaign (which was about 2.5 hours so doesn't fit in my 20 minutes but what the heck it's still there and the fanboy wanted bugs. Randomly I cannot build a starbase more then 3 parsecs, save and reload fixes this. And still there.

Never heard of this. Never ran into it either. Based on your other complaints about starbases you sound like you build a lot of these, a lot more than usual. So far, nothing very major or out of the norm for a game like this.

- Autosave/quicksave/regular save were crashing the game, completely random, made a corrupt save file I could not use, fixed in the first update.

I heard of people having this. If I recall, this was related to the overheating issue. That when saving it ran through all the textures or something which caused a short term spike. I dunno. Never ran into it. Most people didn't.

- The invasion cheese, you will find I complained about this on the forums, I experienced that one in the first game. (fixed last update)

Every game has exploits. You were the one saying this game had a "huge" amount of bugs and your "huge" list has to include little crap like this? Hell Civ 4 had a lot worse stuff than what you've mentioned so far.

- The UP starbase tax (complained about this one, being fixed in this update), the UP volcanic world (complained, not addressed in the fix list that I saw so I guess this one waits a patch). (I'll count those as one)

This is getting into pretty trivial stuff now. Do you play PC games? This is akin to complaining about a spelling mistake.

- The minor races (or any race for that matter) not using gift ships. Not sure but randomly minor races use ships and major almost always now so it must have been fixed. I thought maybe the minors were just too stupid.

Now you're reaching.

- The Planet Quality racial bonus ups the planet number but doesn not increase habitable squares (While the random event "precursor device" does increase squares and quality number). Feature or something not working right I don't know.

Has always worked here.

- Custom racial bonuses randomly doubled in each selected catagory. Logistics would keep doubleing over and over.

Never heard of this.

Look chuck, you were the one making a stink on how "hugely buggy" the game is. Then when pressed this is what you list? THIS?

I have not experienced a single one of these problems you mentioned. You seem to think what happens to you happens to everyone.

Maybe you're a great guy in person, but on this forum, you come across as one of those guys who thinks the world ceases to exist when they close their eyes. You mention a couple of issues that a relatively small % of people had. The rest is incidental trivial stuff that most people will either not experience or notice.

You never answer - if this game is buggy, what game have you purchased recently that wasn't? Civ IV was way buggier than this game. Rome Total War was a much worse. There's just so many computers out there that some person is going to run into some thing.

You claim how easy these things should have been to catch. Well, I was in the beta. I was in the gamma. and I never ran into them. Must not be that easy. I've logged in probably 500 hours on this game and I was a prolific bug reporter during the beta. They took those bug reports and fixed them. But the things you've mentioned, never ran into them. Same for I bet most people.

I think the real frustrations from the team come from trying to make ONE sandwhich that pleases EVERYONE that walks through the door

To see reviews that are positive (as in 'editors choice' positive), yet read complains about the game 'not being done', can be fairly disheartening. Perhaps thats why developers tend to stay away from forums...no matter how hard you try to meet players expectations, there will always be enough un-satisfied people to bring ya down 

I wouldn't bother to take offense. This isn't even an original post. I've seen various iterations of it on gaming forums for at least a couple years. Pretty lame.

OHHNo3s111!!!1 how Dar3 you H4v3 BUZORS in your BROKKE GAM3s11!!!! And the Nerv 2 f1x thEm fer freee. DiD I ask yous to Fixors my GAm3s HUH did I?? U shULD be Ash4med 4 tring 2 ImPr0ve urs product.

We demand high priced, "bug free", supportless and rude developers that are more interested in stealing a doller instead of making one. Perhaps we should get a senator to sign some legislation on this. Then we would all be happy.
Screw Decency, kindness, tac, good business, and fair play. Everyone should be whiny hard to please brats. Then we would see some real action.

Seriously though

Brad, Just ignore this troll. He even acknowleged that he was trolling indirectly at the begining of his post.

Citizen AsokGreen:

You know this was funny when someone did it for Diablo or World or Warcraft (I forget the game and situation where someone first made a funny analogy-story to a fast food restaurant)

But this doesn't make any sense and it is not funny. Not very well written or put together.

At comedy you fail
At complaining you fail
At analogies you fail
At originality you fail
Grade: F

I am not a fanyboy, I think there are a ton of problems with GC2 and was rushed and released in a somewhat buggy state. But what you wrote is complete nonsense. Abba dabba doobie dabba babba. That's what you wrote, Citizen AsokGreen, gibberish.

FWIW, I experienced only one critical bug -- the disappearing mouse. After a little forum research, I learned to bypass it by selecting Hardware mouse.

Everything else is minor, or a game design that I may not agree with 100%. And that's not a bug.

Compared to the last game I spent money on (X3), this is rock solid. That thing was a bugfarm on release.

Compared to the last mainstream strategy game I bought (Rome:Total War, and the BI expansion), the initial GalCiv2 release was more solid and more enjoyable out of the box. RTW needed several major patches (and the BI expansion) before it really came together. And the hardcore fans still bitch about it... but that's the nature of these games.

GalCiv2 isn't the game that I would make myself, if I could wave a magic wand and create things with no effort. But I know the world doesn't work that way. This is a wonderful game, made by dedicated people with a particular vision for how space strategy games should work. I'm willing to meet them halfway, in return for the pure fun of playing this thing.

P.S. not a fanboy... I'll still keep griping about things I don't like.

For all the silent "majority" that has experienced such major issues.... there is a vastly larger number of silent "majority" that hasn't.

I guarantee you that 94.67% of users were beyond content with the product.

It's easy to claim but hard to prove isnt it?

Just like the simple assertions above by some posters about how "everyone" must have noticed these game stopping bugs.

Devs, please dont take any of these half-baked comments on board. A lot of people respect how you work and love the game. You have many supporters who probably never had the time to come to the forums to offer their support because they're too busy playing the game. As with all things in life, the satisfied customers make no noise while the unsatisfied ones scream the house down.

Of course, if the satisfied ones dare to fire back the kind of remarks the unsatisfied ones make in the first place, they are intrinsically, fanboys!

Just keep up the good work! A lot of people appreciate it a lot!

I'd just like to add myself to the list of people who haven't had any problems with the game, think it's great, and really appreciate the support you provide. It's very frustrating that people assume that because you continue to support the game after release, it must have been unfinished when you released it. It clearly wasn't, judging not least from all the amazing reviews V1.0 got. Compared to just about every other software developer who release clearly imperfect games and then just go quiet and move on, you guys are absolutely amazing.

I sadly have to put meself in the list of people who experienced a lot (and I do say, a LOT) of bugs the first times I played, which was about 2 days after the release... But I played anyway, 'cause it was a god damned good game!

And 3 days after the release, it was still a god damned good game, but I looked in the forum, and:
- They found my main bug issue, and already told me what to do (update video driver)
- They released a lightning-fast update, wich ended my bug problem forever.

1st Impression of the game: B+
Quality of customer service: A+
Now quality of the game: A ('cause I did not tried 1.1 yet, and I always leave room for improvement)

Cikomyr: 1.1 is in a Beta stage right now, so if you're looking for stability I'd wait A bit longer to try it. It sounds like you've had enough problems, so let the other gamers enjoy some crashes for a while

Devs, please dont take any of these half-baked comments on board. A lot of people respect how you work and love the game. You have many supporters who probably never had the time to come to the forums to offer their support because they're too busy playing the game. As with all things in life, the satisfied customers make no noise while the unsatisfied ones scream the house down.

Halfbaked? Your a fool to assert that you or that most people did not experience at least some bugs. Or perhaps lack the sense to know when it is a bug. I doubt that though seeing as your post is well worded and such. I made no claims except that I thought MOST people experienced a bug. The percentages were my own, not hard to claim or prove at least to myself. They only had to do with me. I realize you feel the need to stick up for the game, I honestly would myself if I thought it warrented, but it is warrented with my comments. Also "silent majority" is a term brought into the debate by the other side of the arguement. Sarcastically claiming we speak for a silent majority and then claiming we don't makes little sense. Now if by silent majority you mean people who expereinced a bug... how could you not have seen these bugs/exploits, where you in lala land? Did you buy the game last week after most of them were removed? Did you purchase the game and not play it? These are the only situations that would have allowed you to avoid the more obvious bugs, and if any of them are true for you, please please please refrain from commenting.

In other words, not their bug.

whoever is at fault, it's irrelevant to the topic of "bad experiences". In addition I did not make a game that did not work with a brand new computer, that is the latest trend in the gaming industry to require high-end video cards and then complain about how PC games are dead. I do mention that this was fixed, by stardock, not me or dell. I understand the urge to be cutting edge, but if the game sits on my shelf (Hello Dragonshard, I'm waving at you right now) and I refuse to ever purchase another game from your company (Atari for instance), your not competeing well in the game market (all opinions, I grant you). That could be one badass game. I will never know, I am not changing video cards. Maybe one day when I have more money I will buy only gaming computers but a decent one is 3x as much as a new mid level dell, not that I shopped around much, just alienware. If that was 10% over the norm I still could not afford another. Anyways that is a major digression!

Spear-
Also I am definatly content with my product. For the record, more then content. So why would everyone be so defensive? All that I have written is fairly common sense stuff, not too harsh or obviously my opinion. Why would everyone be so offended? Being content, my british friend, does not mean I didn't have bad experiences related to gameplay bugs.

Look chuck, you were the one making a stink on how "hugely buggy" the game is. Then when pressed this is what you list? THIS?

John I was saying the ones I expereinced within 4-5 hours into the game. I was trying to stick close to my claim that I noticed 10 bugs in 20 minutes. I expereinced many many other bugs, as I mentioned, practically all of them (and exploits, such as being able to waypoint AI ships). I didn't think many of those were reaching. Complaining about spelling errors or things I would think are reaching such as conversation scripts not working properly I did not do. Spelling errors were rampant, but I knew they would be there, especially after noticing the vast amount of text in the game. They did not bother me. Perhaps these inconviences to playing (all I mentioned were ones that were irritating, I don't care about spelling errors) are not that big a deal for you. I was hugely dissapointed when I had to restart my game because I was being taxxed 5000 a turn from my own starbases (none of which were in other peoples territories, and the AI starbases that had been placed in my own) I didn't feel like playing 7 or 8 turns because that was about 30 minutes of micromanagment down the toilet. See how minor issues could be major in the right situation? Some of these ruined days of play (such as corrupt saves), some just a minute (such as looking through a gigantic map to see if a new world had actually been made.

If you needed a list of bugs, check the forums. I can rule out the one where you use information warfare and get like a trillion people, just scanning the list, all the rest excepting minor personal issues people mention, or things that aren't bugs people just call them bugs, I expereienced. I have put in about 700-800 hours into the game and understand some havn't but reading these forums many seem like they have comparable addictions. Obviously I love the game. I do feel like I have a right to comment or agree (which is how this started) with other posters on this board. I never wanted to throw the game out the window or anything, I just bravely started the beta patch (which has some issues if I get around to it I'll see if they have been brought up yet). I could list things I could not duplicate but all of these issues I did list were elsewhere on these forums, easily repeatable, and in some cases should have been obvious in beta. Beta testing usually misses a lot though, so you didn' t see me complaining about that.

I think if we counted people having bad experiences they would be in the majority.

Rubbish. Simply stupid, boorish, moronic rubbish.

Fact, the game has won a LOT of "Editor's Choice" awards. And while I don't rely on the gaming media for what I think, the fact remains that the number of glowing reviews alone adds lots of credibility to the notion that the game is a quality game.

If you look at the number of games that have sold, if the people having bad experiences truly were the majority, these boards would be a lot more full of complaints, reader reviews would universally be much, much lower, and the problems would be more obvious. There is no way the majority of players are having a bad experience.

Again, rubbish. Don't apply your own problems to others. Keep your fantasy generalizations to yourself.

Halfbaked? Your a fool to assert that you or that most people did not experience at least some bugs. Or perhaps lack the sense to know when it is a bug. I doubt that though seeing as your post is well worded and such. I made no claims except that I thought MOST people experienced a bug. The percentages were my own, not hard to claim or prove at least to myself. They only had to do with me. I realize you feel the need to stick up for the game, I honestly would myself if I thought it warrented, but it is warrented with my comments. Also "silent majority" is a term brought into the debate by the other side of the arguement. Sarcastically claiming we speak for a silent majority and then claiming we don't makes little sense. Now if by silent majority you mean people who expereinced a bug... how could you not have seen these bugs/exploits, where you in lala land? Did you buy the game last week after most of them were removed? Did you purchase the game and not play it? These are the only situations that would have allowed you to avoid the more obvious bugs, and if any of them are true for you, please please please refrain from commenting.

Halfbaked - as in, not well constructed.... poorly completed. Your arguments are indeed this. You base your ideas on your own experiences (no problem there) but you assume it must be so for everyone (totally invalid).

I am a fool? For disagreeing? I will leave it there before it turns into a personal slur contest. If you dont like my comments then fine, I think yours stank too but I didn't feel the need to call you a fool.

The percentages were indeed your own and pulled out of thin air just like mine.

Oh yes.... I have indeed seen masses of "bug" posts. I have also generally been trying to help those who claim such. It is fact that a vast majority of these "bugs" tend to be a) User error\ignorance. Disagreements in design choice. c) Feature requests. d) Hardware/Driver errors. e) Glitches that are not game-ending. Unfortunately, most users here don't seem to know the definition of a bug. Were there any bugs? Yes there were, but if you looked at the forum and assumed that every post entitled "Bug" was actually true.... then no one would have been able to play this game.... it would have been nothing but bugs.

The most serious bug in the release was that when you built a ship having not gone to the shipyard via the main screen, the game would crash because a window would be placed behind the top screen. If you used the Shipyard button on the main screen, all was well. THIS was a bug - i.e. unintended issue that causes system problems for all users. Not a small thing that 5 people experience and is unreproducable.

For your records, I pre-purchased the game. I have had it pretty much since the moment it was released as I live in Thailand I am considerably ahead in time of the states so I started playing the game the day after release. I played it from the beginning, I have played it solidly - every day since. I have played on every setting and on every level. I have experienced a few bugs.... a few! Not some god awful mass of bugs that would rationalise the rubbish of the first post. So, given the fact that I have been here since the start.... does that give me your permission to comment? Thanks.

My comment is this: There are a bunch of people who stamp their feet when everything doesn't go their way. They *will* make themselves heard. They will do this by posting and reposting their issues on the fan forum. They bring their issue into unrelated posts. They make such a big fuss that other people start to think they must be right and it is just something that they personally haven't experienced. When others turn round and say, that's not true, they are immediately labelled fanboys. Your statistics are horribly flawed. Anytime you bring statistics into an argument they need to be taken from research and using your guide of "just look at the forums" is not a systematic approach to deriving statistics. All it tells you is that people are complaining about bugs. If you read half those posts you will see that they aren't bugs. As I said, if you can pull stats from nowhere, so can I - 85% of those posts are totally irrelevant and unmeaningful and detract from any quality bug reports that do actually get made.

For the record, I have experienced a few bugs. I didn't bother to submit them because they are already well documented i.e. Known Bugs. I honestly tell you that the great majority of "bugs" that I see people post up here simply have not happened on my pc. Either I am very lucky (together with ALL the other people who haven't had them happen) or the "bug" reporter is either doing something wrong, has incorrect drivers or version, or the "bug" reporter doesn't understand that the issue is a design decision that reflects a different opinion from their own.

People having good experiences are by far in the majority. If you are happy about something you dont feel the need to comment on it. If you are unhappy you are more likely to complain - that is human nature and makes message boards like these severely distorted in representing opinions.

#46, bad experiences as defined by me would mean that something unintended and not enjoyable happened during one of the many experiences they had playing the game. I cannot fathom my statement that A BAD EXPERIENCE MUST HAVE BEEN HAD BY A MAJORITY. Editors choice awards aside (read about an actual review a game sometime, generally they get a buggy pre-release anyways, they look beyond things like that to the quality of the product for the review). A bad experience is not defined by everyone hating the game or a majority of experiences being bad. That is all I meant and you people keep misunderstanding me. I simply wanted to note the released product was um not perfect. I think anyone who disagrees with that is simply being a hardcore fanboi who doesn't read a whole post before responding.

The percentages were indeed your own and pulled out of thin air just like mine.

Wrong. Mine were mine only yours refered to everyone which is hard to do to say the least. Mine only discussed me. They only refered to me. Me and me alone. 75% is the one I used in reference to me going through all the bugs I could find on the forums that seemed like actual bugs and checking the yes I experienced it or no I did not. That is actual research on my part. Not thin air. Yours, as you stated, were purposely thin air, assumedly to prove a point that you misunderstood mine. And yes a fool, because you don't read or don't understand a post and that spout off about it. Not just a random personal attack as you insinuate.

It would also seem that you continue to misunderstand my posts, even after it would seem you read them. My only real "statistic" (mathmatically speaking nothing I have stated is actually a staistic but to use the layman definition) was my 75%. That number, if you read it, again, had only to do with me. There is no way for you to refute it unfortuanatly, but I do assure I am being honest. I refer to the forums to say others reported the same bugs I experienced, not to support any statistic, this is most especially true because I A. Did not use a statistic. B. Used a percentage that refered to my own experience. Also once again you have confused my post and here I am argueing about something that has no bearing on my point.

Once more for the record:
Most people have had bad experiences when playing the game.

Define bad experiences as any experience not intended that detracts from the fun of the game.

Good experiences and bad experiences are not, for the purposes of my arguement (Which was that the initial poster makes some good points and has a right to complain, summarized) mutually exclusive concepts. We can have both. I have had both. I will revise my statement earlier to this: I think the majority of people (majority btw is not a statistic) have had both good and bad experiences. Overall I would say, mine personally were mostly good. But I already clairified that ad nauseum.

You are in that most people, that MAJORITY if you will:

For the record, I have experienced a few bugs.

Unless you define these self admitted experiences as um good.

Look Chuck, I am refferring to your comments like "majority", "everyone"..... these are the parts where you are not speaking about yourself - these are not numerical stats but they are statistical. Yet you are implying that there is some kind of universal acceptance of these bad things and that people who dont appreciate that are somehow hiding the truth either from themselves or from others.

Now I know you said that you have mostly enjoyed the game and mostly had good experience. So why are you defending someone (i.e. OP) who created (copied!) a sardonic farce that did little constructive but slur the hard work of the design team?

I still point you back to your comments regarding the amount of bug reports on the forums. I tend to read all of them and I honestly say that the vast majority of them have absolutely nothing to do with bugs. You must know this too as I have seen you posting here for a long time.

I am not disregarding your problems. The couple of bugs you have presented are real, genuine bugs. But they aren't show stopping. Ok, they detract from *your* enjoyment but they don't detract from mine.... or from the other posters on this thread seemingly. But don't use the mass of drivel on these forums to support your point because they do not reflect the reality of the situation. If you spend an hour reading back through the OMG Bug type threads you will clearly see that they are generally a matter of opinion.... or the initial poster finally puts up their debug file and is pointed to the fact that they are running old drivers (and then surprisingly never responds again!).

The bugs I have encountered couldn't be described as good, no. But they really couldn't be described as bad when you look at it from a macro level. They are very minor in relation to the larger scope of the game. Do I want them fixed? Yes. Do I think the initial poster is rude, contentious and lacking in anything constructive? Yes. Do these 2 opinions go together.... I think so. It's your support of the initial poster that has made you the brunt of people's comments. Something I don't think you necessarily mean but you did start your entire line here by agreeing with him (and referring to fanboies which is never going to make your argument go down better anymore than someone calling you a troll!)

Beyond that, you asked for options for things which is a factor for the game developers to work out. They just can't have options for everything.... it would get silly. You have to take the good with the bad.... you dont like the tomatoes but you like the rest of the sandwich.... your choice is to focus your energy on the sandwich or the tomatoes. I'll use another food metaphor as it works for me (I like tomatoes!)...... in one of those massive burgers with everything.... they have gurkins. I hate gurkins. I still eat the burger in its entirety, I dont dig around and find the gurkin to pull it out.... I get 1 mouthful of displeasure for 20 mouthfulls of pure contentment.... I can live with that 1 mouthfull in balance to the rest. Other people like them! This might well be a matter of personal philosophy but complaining strongly against the smallest part when you are happy with the largest part does seem to be strikingly imbalanced. I also disagree that it is the devs responsibility to cater for everyone's tastes..... it is their responsibility to develop the game as it fits their tastes and to try to tailor it to the mass of their customers, not to each and every one. Changing the code and offering countless options is not as easy as taking out tomatoes or gurkins.

Ultimately its your choice what you do.... other people disagree with you so they will respond. Don't call me a fool again for expressing my opinions though or I will call you one and then it will all devolve from there.