Logistics make smaller ships useless?

But that is the whole point! Asumming they both have a logistic of 20, then there is a massive research difference.

Tiny ships only need the logistic research.
Whereelse the huge ships needs both the hull research AND the logistic research.

By the time a race with both hull research and logistic research, they will ALWAYS overpower a race with ONLY logistic research. I hope that made sence.

It will be a lot fairer if you compared a race with only logistic with a race with only hull research and see which one comes out on top. That's 10 tiny vs 1 huge.

another scenario that your not taking into account from the many:
one guy stayed with tiny hull and has much better wpns, while the other guy went hull research.

I still think huge will usually win, even stardock admitted that huge will usually beat tiny.

the real problem with tiny is the following
10 tinies each doing 3 dmg, will not beat 1 huge with 9 def and 3 dmg.

Well, the fleet of tiny ships, *should* lose - it's cheaper.

Instead, look at a cost equivalent fight.

12 tiny ships (1740) vs 3 huge ships (1800)

If the tiny ships attack first:

Round 1. They do 42 points of damage to one of the huge ships.
Round 2. The huge ships return fire and destroy 3 of the tiny ships.
Round 3. The remaining 9 tiny ships fire. 2 ships do 7 damage to the damaged huge ship, destroying it. One of the remaining huge ships takes 24 damage.
Round 4. The 2 huge ships destroy 2 more tiny ships.
Round 5. The (now) 7 tiny ships fire, doing another 24 damage, destroying another huge ship.
Round 6. The last huge ship destroys one of the tinies.
Round 7. 6 tiny ships do 21 damage to the huge.
Round 8. Another tiny destroyed
Round 9. 5 tiny ships do 18 damage to the huge.
Round 10. Another tiny destroyed.
Round 11. The last 4 tiny ships finish of the last huge ship.

4 Tiny ships survive.

I'm not going to go through the reverse example, but if the huge ships attack first, they do win.

Another reason why your example isn't indicative of a general problem is that you only looked at one (rather primitive) weapon tech. I dug up my last end-game save, here's a look with higher technology.

Tiny ship (3x Phasor VII, 1x Graviton driver IV - fills the hull completely, no wasted space)
HP 6
FP 18
Cost 218
Log 2

Huge ship (12x Phasor VII)
HP 48
FP 60
Cost 760
Log 6

If a fleet of 10 tinys square off against 3 huge ships.

If the tiny ships attack first, the tiny ships win, 8 tiny ships survive.

If the huge ships attack first, the tiny ships win, 3 tiny ships survive.

Doesn't look like logistics made tiny ships useless after all. Instead, your poor weapons tech did that.

Yes, weapon choice and defence can play a major part in winning a battle that might not be possible on even ground.

However, the point I was making was that the cost/maintanence and research time put into it should make it more of an impact in winning when versus a race with less. But good strategy can change the outcome.

However, the point I was making was that the cost/maintanence and research time put into it should make it more of an impact in winning when versus a race with less.

Are you telling that the richer (the one who can produce more ship and have researched more thing) should always crush the poorer?

Are you telling that the richer (the one who can produce more ship and have researched more thing) should always crush the poorer?

Not with good strategy or weapon/defence choices. But if you are basing it on a technological standpoint where everything else is even then the one with the most research should win - otherwise why research anything at all?

Are you telling that the richer (the one who can produce more ship and have researched more thing) should always crush the poorer?

In the current combat system....yes, every time.

I believe the main point of focussing on small-ship combat and logistics is that if you KNOW you'll use tiny and small ships throughout the game, you can keep using the same ships that win the first few combats, upgrading their tech as necessary. By the time your enemies have large hulls you should probably have quite a few mega-experienced ships around, making up the difference in hitpoints quite nicely.

Tiny ship (3x Phasor VII, 1x Graviton driver IV - fills the hull completely, no wasted space) HP 6 FP 18 Cost 218 Log 2 Huge ship (12x Phasor VII) HP 48 FP 60 Cost 760 Log 6

The problem with this example is the tiny ships are the perfect design for fighting huge ships, while the huge ships are about the worst design for fighting tiny ships. The huge is wasting about 80% of its firepower, on average, turning fighter wreckage into crushed, atomized, scattered wreckage. A huge with say 20 firepower and 16 defence in two different categories would probably eat them for breakfast. Of course, THAT huge would have problems against the 60-attack huge.

It stands to reason that with the weapons being the same, the shields being the same and the engines being the same, being able to fit a lot more shots in per "turn" makes the smaller ships the more advantageous.

Sure, you will lose more ships in the long run due to a lower HP value, but you stand a greater chance of winning the battles simply because you're firing more often.

Especially against the Dread Lords.

Nobody has mentioned military starbases yet. These can add very significant bonuses to each individual ship. Which means a far greater bonus overall to a large fleet of tiny ships as opposed to a small fleet of huge ships.

What about military support starbases?
Let a support starbase add +3 to missile attacks. Now the smalls have 9 FP each for a total of 90. Still not as strong, but getting better fast. This makes an empire with less hull research and production able to hold off an empire with better ships, at least in their own backyard. And you can prolly crank out a bunch of these puppies fast if you really need to.
edit: oops, random50 beat me to it.

Actually I think it should be that as the game progresses the smaller ships become less valuable, even when grouped, versus the larger hulls. This makes it worthwhile to go to fewer and larger hulls. Otherwise on large maps you end up with swarms of small ships to track and upgrade. Making it worthwhile to upgrade, research bigger hulls and better weapons and higher overall techs also makes the later ("end") game interesting. Otherwise you just keep spending turn after endless turn pumping out the same unit over and over again. This is the problem with the Civ4 end game, the last fifty turns or so are just producing tons of the same units

My preferred strategy is to use the smaller ships, usually small and medium but late game I'll have some worthwhile tiny designs to produce also. I don't find myself producing the same ship over and over, because I'm still upgrading periodically for new weapons tech, better miniaturization, etc.

The original example does not feature ships of the same tech level (as someone else pointed out). Huge ships require a ton of research; tiny ships require none at all. Put those beakers into miniaturization and you have a fight on your hands.

The strategy involved in ship design is complicated; its part of what makes the game great. If I plan on investing heavily in starbase assist bonuses, more ships is more bonus. An invasion fleet that won't be in range of my starbases will be designed on different lines. If I know the enemy is using a particular strategy in their ship designs, I design to counter it. I've yet to find a situation where I am forced to go for larger hulls as a solution to enemy strategy.

Tiny fighters are for wave attacks.....and there are going to be lossess in wave attacks against huge ships. I think the game got it right. The game says that a huge hull is a ship "3000 meters in length" (I think), that's pretty big and I imagine it would take a lot of fighters to bring down 3.

"The logistict numbers seem all messed up imo. Is there any way a group of tinys or smalls can win against the larger ships? "

Of course there is, it's called military bases... How hard is that to comprehand? You have a base that gives each ship +1 to beams guns and missles. Thats total of +3. You multiply that by 8 ships i a little 16 logistick fleet, thats +24 to weapons. A group of medium ships at 16 logistics (meaning only 4 ships in a fleet) would only get +12 to weaposn from same star base. Plus you can stack starbase bonuses. It's called using your brain.

Ok, so I jumped to conclusions a bit. Tinys can have a chance against huges. But is this still valid when putting engines into the equation? I usually put 3 engines on my larger ship to make it effective even on larger maps. That somewhat takes 3 weaponslots away. Doing this on a small ship will take away almost all of it's firepower. Does this mean that, also in regards to starbases, small ships are only for defence? They can't (?) move enough to be a mobile assault force, they'll almost never get first strike due to move points and to add to that they need the bonus from starbases which mostly will be on your turf in an armed conflict. Or are they usable as attackers to?

Oh, and Astax, thanks for that flame. I felt a bit cold.

I don't usually play with Tiny ships, but Small hulls can certainly be effective until the end of the game, even on huge galaxies. The keys have all been stated on this thread. And do not underestimate the benefits of the experience that your early fleets gain over the course of the game. Last game, I had a fleet of Small hulls that all reached Level 43 (!). They had 96HP each and could easily take down new Huge hull fleets from the AI.

It's all about leveraging if you ask me. Tiny & Small ships work best under the influence of military bases because the Starbase Assist and planetary defense bonuses enhance on a per-ship basis (at least as far as I know). Medium and larger ships work best out in the field without support because they can stand more.

I mean, if you have 30 logistics points and a starbase with Protective Fields (+1 def/all) & Sniper Turrets (+1 atk guns), you can either have 5 huge ships and in-total get +15 def and +5 atk, or you can have 15 tiny fighters and get +45 atk and +15 def.

So unless your 5-ship fleet is somehow still better than the 15-ship fleet after applying all those bonuses, there's definitely a use for them. Just use the small-ship fleet as mobile defenders and you're set.

Note: Your ships have to have at least 1 attack and 1 defense to benefit from both bonuses.