Minor Irritation - Surrender

Or game balance issue?

I was playing a small game in which the Korx declared war on me and I proceeded to pummel them into submission, maintaining my lead as the most powerful civilization without breaking a sweat. They finally begged for a peace treaty and I took all their unique technology. But then they surrendered to the Thalans, whom refused to even help me during the war, and as a result the Thalan's population, research, and culture skyrocketed, propelling them to a cultural victory within just a few weeks.

It seems kind of unfair to me that one culture could catapult itself to such a sound victory just by taking advantage of my hard work. But I guess that's diplomacy, eh?
14,345 views 15 replies
Reply #1 Top
Heheh. . . Don't forget that the opposite can happen. In my early games the AIs kept surrendering to me when their wars with another AI didn't go well. I conquered most of the map without firing a single shot or building a single influence base.
Reply #2 Top
surrendering in gc2 is stupid.

surrendering occurs when you dont wanna be slaughtered by whoevers killing you.

-the a.i shouldnt surrender to its allies.
-the a.i should only surrender to the enemy that did the most dmg to it, or to an allie of the enemy that did the most dmg.
Reply #3 Top
gave me timeout error when I first submitted, but I guess it submitted anyway.
Reply #4 Top
I don't see how the surrender to ally thing makes the game more interesting. It certainly doesn't make it more realistic... Really, at some point the enemy should surrender to you... why else would you waste all that time conquering them if not to see them beaten into submission?

Also, after I conquer planets, their popuations seem to be very low. What's the deal? Did I kill off all the aliens? I've noticed in a lot of space strategy games you seem to exterminate everyone on the planets you invade... That seems silly, in war noboddy *exterminates* the enemy, because it is much more economical to just chop off the top layers of the government and replace it with your own. At most, you capture the populace as slaves... but of course in the long run what's better than slaves, people who work for free, is people who work and pay *you* money to do it, i.e. taxpaying citizens.
Reply #5 Top
That's what a culture takeover does. It kicks the government out and keeps the people. Governments in Galciv are mean and during an invasion they give all their people pitchforks and expect them to fight to the end.

That's what Japan was going to do if we invaded during WW2, and it was only after we demostrated our military technology superiority that they surrendered, in much the same way that if you strip away every ship the enemy has and move your transports up they'll sometimes surrender to you rather than allow their people to be slaughtered while trying to jab your tanks with pitchforks...
Reply #6 Top
As far as surrendering to their allies is concerned, I can't think of really good examples in history. Maybe there was some example in the roman republic. They gobbled quite a few empires up with treaties and the like as part of a diplomatic package to protect them from their neighbours.
Reply #7 Top
I think that the computer surrendering to its Allie is perfectly logical...altho a pain in the @$$. If I went to war with a country and we fought a brutal long drawn out war with all the atrosities etc etc etc. And I knew i was going to lose. I see his fleets above my planet and know a public exicution and possible toucture await me unless i kill myself...DAMN right im going to surrender to a friend of mine...and neutral to them...maybe my friend will let me be govenor of my last planet. If Germany had the possiblity to surrender to (imput fake country that was allied with germany and neutral with everyone else but had a large military) instead of Russia...don't you think germany would have? Pain in the butt yes...realisitc? possible...would i do it...hell yeah.

sorry about bad grammar and spelling... 3am here.
Reply #8 Top
The surrendering thing:

The Ally shouldn't except the surrender at all! or it should surrender abck the planet to you. Why risk relationship or war with anyone, especially if it was against an all powerful enemy. Anyway, this surrender things seem to be very random. Sometimes the enemy surrenders to me and sometimes it doesn't, and it doesn't seem to be dependent on whether I was the enemy, or whether I was in a war or not.
Reply #9 Top
Your example of Japan actually makes my point:

1. The Japanese *did* surrender, this is a historical fact. It is true that the Japanese government made a lot of noise about fighting to the end beforehand. I think it reveals how some aspects of Japanese culture have been trumped up to legendary proportions that even in the modern day people take this seriously... Soldiers might fight to the death... if they have no alternative, but civilians are another matter entirely. As a rule, take any propaganda or last ditch plans made by governments losing wars with a grain of salt.

2. You should note that the whole reason that we used nuclear weapons, even though this meant tipping our hands to the russions, was that a land based war of attrition was considered incredibly undesirable. Again, after the war we took steps to gain the cooperation of the existing Japanese government, sparing some from war crimes trials, most notably the Showa Emporer. Similar tactics were taken in Europe with the nazis.

For an example of how costly and stupid demolishing an existing society is and building up a new one up from scratch, you need look no further than our current war in Iraq. When we entered Iraq the first thing we did were
1. disband the army
2. fire the police
3. fire anyone with connections to the baathist party i.e. anyeone with experience running the country

We didn't exactly go in looking to fight a war of attrition with the local population... but after you do the first 3 things, the other thing follows whether you like it or not.

If you read a little machiavelli, or pretty much anyone else who knows anything about politics and war, you learn that the proper way to take control of a state through force is to leave as much of the government untouched as possible, keep the local officials and laws the same etc, but to kill off everyone in the top echelons of government who might have a ligitimate claim to power, and also their families if power is transfered along hereditary lines. Some people favor killing the ruler, and taking his descendents as de facto hostages back to the home country while a puppet government rules in his name. I believe the japanese did this to the korean monarchy at some point...

I always thought that taking the ruler of a foreign country hostage, would be a good element for some of these civilization style games. It would be a good way to create satellite states.
Reply #10 Top
I think (and I dont want to put words in the dev's mouth(s)) that surrendering is intended to be a "stick in the spokes"... it is there to shake things up.

If a race surrenders to someone who, before then, wasnt really doing very well... suddenly that person may become a power in the universe. It keeps the game dynamic.

This is exactly what happened in the match mentioned above. He was the most powerful.. he was "pwning" the universe.. and then suddenly, because of the surrender, he was confronted by a race more powerful than him. It "shook things up"... obviously he didnt handle it well, because he lost.

But anyway. As to the "logic" of the surrenders.. you are taking the word too literally. The defeated race is choosing to relenquish control of their planets to a more powerful race that can protect them. In that case.. it is much more logical that they would surrender to someone OTHER than the people attacking them. They are saying "I cant protect myself, so we are putting ourselves under your rule so that you can save us from the evil [insert your race] that is trying to kill us"

My solution to this problem is to take the "Good" route as quickly as possible ..and get me one of those temples built so that I have a much greater chance of them surrendering to me.

THEN, when I get their planets..I keep the best ones for myself.. and use the outer/smaller planets as bargaining chips to manipulate the other races into killing themselves

Reply #11 Top
If a race surrenders to someone who, before then, wasnt really doing very well... suddenly that person may become a power in the universe. It keeps the game dynamic.


That's what I thought, but it isn't enitirely true.

I saved a game people attack the very last planet of the Dregin empire. I then proceeded to conquer the planet, and reloaded to see who the AI surrends to. Each and everytime, it is to a seemingly random race. They even surrendered to me a few times. I don't know what contribes to the decision but it seems very random to me for the same game.

Reply #12 Top
I realy like the faxt that sometimes the AI surrenders to me when I'm kicking his arse, I also like whn drengin kicks someonse arse, he surrenders to him, not to me; sometimes i even reload the game
Reply #13 Top
I don't think it is entirely random. Almost always my closest friends surrender to me. But sometimes it really seems random. Maybe it happens when there are equally good candidates to receive a surrender.
Reply #14 Top
What AI Surrendering is annoying? It damn better be! It's AI's last jab at you and it should be annoying. True it usually makes me angry and I have to declare war on my closest allies sometimes, but hey I was going to smoke them anyway!

Very few times will the AI fight to the bitter end. Usually they trow in the towel when they have 2 systems left. But I'mr eady for that and because you don't surrender ships, those planets are wide open for pure transport assualt!

Altough I would welcome an option to demand the AI surrender, much liek it was in SE4. I woudl plant a small fleet in orbit and bomb the ai Home Planet demanding a surrender every turn. Usually he would comply eventually, it eliminated the need for further bloodhsed or a ground force
Reply #15 Top
The AIs seemingly giving up and/or surrendering in a seemingly random manner would be ok once in a while. I just get tired of it happening regularly and usually totally unbalancing a previously good game.