POLL: How would you improve tech trading?

I don't understand D, but I certainly agree that the races should not be Hostile towards one another in order for tech trading to be allowed. I don't, however, think a trade route should be required.

I'd go C, since I don't always bother to make trade routes and I don't think they really have anything to do with tech trading.

It could be nifty if you had a chance to steal techs with people you had trade routes with. It would be like enterprising smugglers bringing new tech to your empire.... Maybe for a price?

-Dewar

H. Should only beable to trade techs that you researched. This goes for the Ai also. Sort of like trade goods.

Oooh, that's a good one big96d

-Dewar

Thanks

Uh, I thought you could only trade techs you researched? I'm mildly confused, is big96d's suggestion really a suggestion is just pretty much how the game is doing it?

B, C and F

I vote C. I would also like to see the tech trading between the various AIs to be reduced.


JBB

I like big96d's idea. I also think that the AI should treat each other like they would the player. So if they wouldn't trade it to them for reasons x,y, or z, then they should apply the same logic to other AIs.

I probably wouldn't change it all, but I could see going with option "H", and doing the following:

Allow the user to establish a level of technology trading (basically, combine your options into a selectable list for the player). I realize that this probably the hardest possible implemetation.

I don't like the thought of limiting Tech Trade. While your ideas are good, I also like the thought of being able to coax an enemy race into a treaty with a tech I have that they don't. Or, on the more evil side, using tech to bribe a non-friendly race into doing my bidding (declare war on another race to bog them down). While other trade goods could be used for this purpose, I still recommend not limiting tech trading.

Basically, leave it as is.

Big96d is talking about techs you actually researched, rather than traded for.

...personally, I don't see the problem. When I get a tech from the AI I do the rounds and trade it to everyone who doesn't have it, unless it would directly damage my chances. Why shouldn't they do it too?

Assume that most non-weapon techs will immediately be spread out to the other races. Hoard techs you don't want to have spread around (for me, that's either the defense to my main weapon, influence techs if I'm going for that victory, and diplomatic techs because that harms later trades). It's hard, because when you research sensitive tech you've got nothing new to trade for yourself, but that's life. I leave my most likely enemies out of the tech-trade loop, but I'm sure the other folk will trade it to them eventually, so it only slows them down.

Remember that the AI only checks to see if trades would hurt *itself*, not if it'd hurt you. If it has missiles and you give it shields, it should have no worries trading those shields on - what does it care if you have lasers?

I like big96d's idea. I also think that the AI should treat each other like they would the player. So if they wouldn't trade it to them for reasons x,y, or z, then they should apply the same logic to other AIs.

As far as I can tell, they do. What makes you think they don't?

Considering that big96d idea seems a very good idea, How can i add this option in the original text without messing anything? If the thread goes on this idea could not be seen by other posters.

i vote D, it works in Hearts of Iron 2 very good

D, or not tech trading at all. I dont like the other options (-1 for them )

Tech trading is fine the way it is.

The worse your relationships with a civ, The more they will charge you.

The reverse applys, Also only really friendly civs (Friendly or better) will trade weapon tech with you.

Its all good.

--

A

1. An option to hide obsolete techs. For example, if you have traded for Mass Drivers II and don't want any of the older techs, have the option to hide obsolete techs such as Miniballs I and II.

My empire is a research empire, but for an empire that relies on trades for techs, this would become an annoying issue quickly.

2. Show the relative level of the techs being traded for. More information shown about your comparative diplomatic levels. A rating to show how much or against your favor trading with this empire would be. There are so many techs it's hard to know if you're getting a good deal or a bad one sometimes. Sometimes I reject a deal or accept to find I should have done the opposite when I review the tech tree.

MORE OPTIONS! (for non-metaverse games obviously)

I dont want it 'changed', i want the ability to have more options

- an option for friendly + trade route to trade is good. maybe even add a NEW! tech before its allowed. Maybe a diplomatic freighter you have to build to go actually pick up stuff? The freighter would kinda suck during wartime though =/ and thats when you need friends help most.

- an option for zero trading would be nice

- my favorite still, would be an option to only allow you to trade away techs that YOU research yourself. no 2nd hand technology stores in my galaxy!

I researched alliances and traded it off to 2 other races. When I go to treaties I still don't get the option even though our relations are at warm. What is the requirement for alliances? I'm halfway through the game and I still can't make an alliance.

Of those choices, D-Blueprints, the Hearts of Iron 2 model is definately the way to go when it comes to tech trading. More like real life. The Japanese recieved alot of plans from the Germans in WW2, but it still took them time and effort to get them running.

But I would still like to see an option for completely turning it off like in Civ4. That was the best thing Sid ever did to that game.

I also think that the AI should treat each other like they would the player. So if they wouldn't trade it to them for reasons x,y, or z, then they should apply the same logic to other AIs.

As far as I can tell, they do. What makes you think they don't?

I don't have an extensive amount of time playing the game so far (darn r/l), so maybe I'm wrong. But it certainly looked to me like the AIs were trading among themselves a fair amount. When I would talk to them about the tech (and I was normally not researching what they were) all the techs that they were trading between themselves were really expensive for me to purchase and they were all get the same techs very close together.

Either: 1) they were all researching the same techs, 2) trading them at a discount, or 3) I really just interpreted the data incorrectly.

Shrug. If they are as expensive for them to trade between themselves as it is for me to trade with them and they apply the same logic as to whether to make the deal or not regardless of who they are trading with, then I'm good with the system.

I vote for D, as people mentioned before Hearts of Iron II uses this and its much more logical and it eliminates the instant trade of tech to other races.

If not D, either alliance trading or not trade at all.

I think a combination choice between

Friendly relations, Blueprint trading is the best way to go.

I dont think they need to change the system just add these options for all the people that dont every race to be exactly the same in tech.

There seems to be two big problems with excessive tech trading. Which are not actually related.

a) There seems to be a "Tragedy of the Commons" problem Link. If any single race decides to sell all of its tech to everyone then every other race must as well. Thus every races sells every tech and any race who doesn't is hindered both technologically and economically.

This is a problem because the player might not want to sell all their tech every turn (it's not very exciting and it makes the technology tree basically unimportant).

There is a cheap way to exploit the AI. It's far too willing to sell techs (even though it should know you're going to sell them to everyone) and it's far too willing to buy techs (it'll buy techs that are basically useless to it even if it's bankrupt).

This is a problem because it's just an easy (and boring) way to gain an advantage over the AI.

Solutions:

is relatively easy to fix, make the AI more savy about when it will trade tech. And make sure that on every turn it sells every tech to every player (incase any one of them tries to sell them on).

a) is much harder. Limiting the speed of tech trading (like options C,E,F & big96d) helps a little but it doesn't change the fact that the best strategy is to sell on almost all your tech to every race possible, every turn. If the player doesn't want to do this (and it's a pretty dull strategy) then the only options are:

1) make the AI very disinclined to initiate tech trades. This solves a) but makes worse; the player doesn't have to tech trade all techs every turn if they don't want. However if they do then they have a horrendous advantage (since they are then the galaxies only arms dealer).

2) include an option to disable tech trading outright. This ends the discussion completely but some players might find it limiting. But seems the only real option to deal with problem a).This seems to be the option the devs are playing with.

Sorry that's a bit long but I like to be thorough

H

AI decides which of your techs it really wants (Industrial sector and planetary invasion, for instance), and will refuse to buy any others, at least until the most desirable ones are acquired. Decisions may be based on
1. Its own tech items. The AI is unwilling to buy any tech obsoleted by another that it owns. Weapons of another class than its main weapons are not very interesting unless an enemy has great defences against its main weapons or it is more powerful than the current level of its main weapons. If it is contemplating an invasion against the player, no defences against its own weapons will be traded.
2. Friends' and enemies' techs. It will not give as much for a tech that friends have, as there are more potential sellers who ought to be willing to sell at a lower price. It does encourage whoring away a tech to everyone who is interested once you decide to release it, but will give diminishing returns for each race that gets it. Or it may expect to capture the tech from a weakened enemy in a short while so it's not worth paying for. Defences to the weapons deployed by its enemies are more valueable than other defences.
3. Longterm goal. For instance the Yor may not be particularly interested in diplomacy techs, after all they seek the extermination of all non-mech life. If a race wants to aim for research victory (I've never seen this happen), items along that path would be valuable.
4. Current lacks of its civ. If it is lagging behind in research, techs which boost reasearch would be welcome. If it is lagging far behind in weapons techs (or even has none), it should be extremely eager to get some.
5. Current military positions. If an enemy has multiple fleets roaming near your fleets, a quick boost to logistics could make a huge difference. If the AI has defeated defenders at an enemy's planets or is about to launch a great offensive where it expects to invade planets, soldiering boosting techs are valuable.
6. Previous trades. If the player has been generous in previous trading, the AI may allow a better price, or even give away something as the AI "owes" something. For instance, give (or sell cheaply) the Arcean the techs they need to repel the Drengin fleet threatening their worlds, and it could be very grateful and eager to repay the favour. Whore away techs you get from the AI, and it may take offence (it's kinda their intellectual property as they developed it) - unofficially or officially - and give you worse deals later.

And on and on... The problem is, all this logic is probably pretty time-consuming to implement. Barring these improvements, I'm rather happy the way it is. Playing on higher difficulty levels, the tech trading doesn't give you a huge unfair advantage. Although I'd at least like number 2, as it should make a good difference and not be too hard to implement, save perhaps for calculating expectations to conquering planets.