Hi guys!

Another possibilty would be to combine a couple of ideas mentioned above. What could be done is rather than flatly restrict tech trading to non friendly allied/friendly civsor using other restrictive techniques, we could use a happiness modifier to tech trades based on tech levels below current tech. For eg

Ally - Tradeable current generation technology Good Relations - Tradeable 1 generation old technology Neutral Relations - Tradeable 2 generations old technology Bad Relations - Tradeable 3 generations old technology War - No technology trading at all

Rather than outright restrict tech trading, add a happiness penalty on a civ (for a certain period of time), which trades techs in this manner; the penalty builds on subsequent trades and trade to an increasingly hostile civ (ie.. bigger penalty for trade of tech at 1 obsolete level than 2 obsolete levels with trade to civ with neutral relations, increasing more so when dealing with a civ with negative relations). This represents a civs population being upset with trade that is detrimental to the civ's interests.

Couple this with the reduced profit idea for each civ that has a tech, and possibly some of the other ideas and you have a situation where you dont outright forbid tech trading, allowing the freedom to continue trading but which will add a serious deterrant to excessive trading in a more (IMO) logical way.

-USA share f-22 techs with UK, UK shares his tech with Italy, France, Spain and at an higher price at China. So China pays a bit more than Italy but get USA last technology. It’s totally unrealistic USA would never share their best tech to China or allow UK to do it. I don't agree also with people which say only that it's realistic or rationale that all races trade their techs because they can get new technologies. In a struggle for survival like all 4x strategy games the rationale is that every race should see other race as a potential competitor so they should maximize their profit but also try to hamper development of other races not fostering it.Tech whoring is not rationale

You're missing my point. Race trading tech is just a simulation of how tech moves around the globe in real life. this is done through both commercial and political channels. do you think the U.S. would have given up the cotton gin to other countries? of course not. Did other countries rapidly gain this technology? yes. Did the chinese (or indians) develope nuclear weapons? yes. was their weapons program rapidly accelerated (or wholly owed to) by americans developing nuclear weapons? most definitely.


Tech trading happened through both intentional and unintentional channels. Like I've said before, the stardock method isn’t perfect but no 4x developer has come up with better.

Guys, the AI *already* adjusts asking prices based on ethics, political relationships etc. You need *new* ideas if you want to solve the issue. Again, simply '-10% value per holder of the tech' is a bad idea, but allowing the AI to determine they can get a better deal elsewhere is not.

Frankly, if two races are allied with each other and you're not allied with either, the AI should *not* accept a trade from you for a tech they can get from their ally. Everything should be set up that they can get it cheaper from their ally - the exceptions should be if you offer them something their ally doesn't have, ie trade goods, planets etc. Simply trading for money or a tech a 'closer' political friend has should be refused, since it's going to be a 'bad deal'. Of course, if you want to offer them a steaming PILE of money they should accept it, but simple market forces should dictate they'd rather get it cheaper from an ally than trade with a crazy stranger. Thus, instantly your total number of 'effective' trades per tech is seriously reduced, unless you're the galaxies number one nice guy.

Any suggestion for flat, out-of-universe rules like 'tech value decreases by magic' or 'only one trade per turn because their modems are slow' or 'you can build and improve the tech but somehow not trade it' should all be ignored as game-breaking. Thankfully, none of them are necessary as simply improving the AIs dtermination of 'good deals' will make the problem go away.

I agree that tech trading is too easy in the game and should be made A LOT harder - at least on the high and very high difficulty levels.

I'd definitely second an option to switch it off as well, a simple (working ) checkbox would be enough for me though.

My problem is that minor races offer me unbalanced trades. I refuse because they are one sided (against me) but I know that two AIs are accepting unbalanced trades from time to time. This is the only way they get so many techs.

I have to initiate trades constantly so that the trade offers are fair and I can keep up. This and trading with a minor race for everything I can get no matter the deal 1 move before destroying their planet.

I would suggest assigning every tech a point level. Then only allow trades of nearly equal value.

I would like see something like

a patent system:

If you buy a tech and trade it around you would get a high penalty in your diplomatic relations

blueprint system:

buying tech should give you an advantage if you want to research a tech but you should at least do some of the work on your own still (for example 30%-50% of the original research).

Giving away tech should carry some internal penalties as well:

Something it costs you approval/ money to give away tech . Imagine yourself the Us government tells Boeing to habd over their newest design to our friendly European neighbors,

It is too easy to be able to react against others weapons by grabbing the tech through trade that you need.
Which is a pity, it means you don't really get a nasty surprise when you realise you are 6 techs away from having an effective defence/attack.

Now we did it, I wont play a new game until something is done about the tech trading... Its sad but I am just costantly irritated about the tech trading and it puts a big damper on my otherwise awesome experience.

I am on strike I am back to CIV 4 for a while.. Please address this Stardock, I am just dying to play this game.

Duplicate

Tech trading in Galciv 2 isn't that bad, really. At least it's not like in civ3 when the AI would NEVER negociate fairly with the player. At least in Galciv2, the AI treats you like it would treat another AI.

Option 1: Open Tech Trading

Option 2: Tech Trading to Allies Only

Option 2: No Tech Trading

Easy to Implement selection at the beginning of the game.

Option 1: Open Tech Trading Option 2: Tech Trading to Allies Only Option 2: No Tech Trading Easy to Implement selection at the beginning of the game.

Yeah, this is a good stop gap measure! Could we get this in a patch this weekend please?

Actually, I've found that the AI races trading techs makes my job easier. In the two games I've played, all of the AI races were all using the exact same weapons and defenses. My missile-packing, shielded cruisers wiped the floor with them all. It seemed like their tech swapping was so rampant, I felt like they were all the same enemy.

Actually, I've found that the AI races trading techs makes my job easier. In the two games I've played, all of the AI races were all using the exact same weapons and defenses. My missile-packing, shielded cruisers wiped the floor with them all. It seemed like their tech swapping was so rampant, I felt like they were all the same enemy.

Thats a bug, not a feature.

Eaxctly my gripe.. No diversification makes me irritated enough to stops me from starting a new game until its been fixed.

Well Ike did share Nuclear Knowledge to the world and thats about the most extreme case of someone sharing a most extreme Technology that you SHOULD never have shared with the world. I think you can view his Atom for Peace speech somewhere on the web.

At anyrate, there isn't a higher tech then Nuclear Power as it stands today, and we shared it with the world. Thats why you have all the problems with Countries who want this Nuclear Power, somehow GOP forgot that they gave it away willingly for peace, and now they want to conquer all whom want a Nuclear Power Plant.

Now maybe it was a mistake for them to share this Knowledge, but I can garuntee you that if Nuclear Knowledge was NEVER shared by the world, things would be alot different and the world would not be posturing for an invasion into Iran right now.

Also during WW2 we literally shared almost all knowledge with the Allies and vice versa.

Things can get complex in the world, but it is definitly because of the Nuclear Tech trading that we are now on the verge of war. So tech trading is a complex thing and I dont think we can look at it in a black and white area, its very grey area.

I dont really know the Solution to this problem, but I know it is not an Exploit if the AI is also into the tech trading business. Right now I'm the only person with Impulse 2 Engines, and there are atleast 5 Major and 3 minor races whom have the exact same Tech Level as me minus one Tech. I think Tech trading is a Powerful tool for ones who are caught in the middle. The more I trade, the less likely the enemy will invade me because I'm helping them, the more I trade, the more money I get. But, because I'm the leading Tech Trade master and found a race that had never gotten into the tech race, I will invade them for an easy victory if I choose too, in the mean time, I might trade a few techs with him so when I conquer his worlds he will have upgraded factories and research labs

Thats the power of position, being the middle to be able to trade with other races. That type of gameplay should not be hurt very much if we do decide to change this.

I did notice that when Tech Trading with an AI whom has low funds, they will still trade the Tech with each other regardless of how low their funds are. Lets say a Tech is worth 500, but since the other AI only has 600, he gets a huge discount and only pays 120 or so for it. This also happens when you trade with Minor Races, you can notice how you get less money for more advanced techs when the Minor Race is running out of money. You end up trading the last 5 techs for only 100-200 which is far less than they are worth. NOW if each tech had a Stop Limit in which they are unable to be traded it if the price fell below a certain point, for example if that 500 Tech would not be able to be sold for less than 350 then the Minor race would be unable to purchase it because he wouldn't offer enough for it. The AI's should be unable to sell a tech past a certain price. That should help slow down the tech race, but also put those with money ahead in the tech race.

Good post, we need to have some tech trading because it gives you a lot of strategies.
I also think it would be good to have a no tech trading options. This to give theoption for players that not like the existing system or just dont want to have tech trading.br/>

We need to make trading harder so it wont be a free for all.

I am still on Strike.. Might not be able to hold out for much longer though..

Blueprint design gets a vote from me, most realistic and solves a lot of problems.

Blueprint is nice, but I think 'No-trading-tech-you've-not-researched' would fix another problem that irks me.

On the 'Diplomacy', you can basically know what direction the AI's are going in (Tech wise) by seeing what Technology they have available to trade.

If the above change were to go through, then (I would assume) only the tradable tech would show up on the 'Diplomacy' screen (not any other techs that they may have aquired from other AI).

Actually, there is a potential rationalisation for these OOU 'you can't trade techs you didn't make... for some reason' suggestions.

The example of nuclear power got me thinking. None of the principles behind nuclear weapons are secret: indeed, we teach highschoolers these principles. It's difficult to simply 'make a nuclear bomb' because implentation is quite different to abstract understanding. After all, any terrorist can go to the library and learn about neutron capture, but building a nuclear weapon takes entire countries decades of experimentation and development.

So, perhaps if you trade for a tech you should actually have to expend some resources to actually 'gain' the tech? I'm suggesting trading for 'planetary invasion' gives you the 'technology' part, but you still have to actually implement it before it's usable. Tech trading in this case would allow you to get techs faster, and skip prequisites, but not simply magically go from 'zero capability' to '100% capability' in one second. Of course, nobody would trade for techs you had not fully assimilated in this way.

It would suggest the collorory of 'full technical assistance'. It'd be neat if a civ could offer to fully assist your researchers to gain a tech they already have. This process would take time, but wouldn't require you to actually be 'researching' the tech - it would just add a 'cooling down' period between being 'given' the tech and actually 'having' the tech. This period could even be dependent on how close you already are to the tech: offering someone 'huge hulls' when they haven't got mediums, for example would take a long time after the 'trade' to actually 'transfer' to the primitive civilisation.

My post in brief: transferring tech in a single moment is indeed absurd, and tech trade could be slowed down by implementing a process of transfer. Sound good?

[Double post. Sorry.]
The trade screen should not show a full list of techs/planets/ships. It's absurd that you can call up Evil Empire and count the ships on their list, and see what class they are etc. That's valuable military intelligence! The above example, of assessing a civs tech direction, is equally bad - I can tell how close someone is to countering my weapons just by making a phone call. During trade you should have to 'make available' things, like in MMORPGs.

It'd make interesting diplomacy - if tech took 'time' to transfer, it would be risky as someone could go to war with you and 'break off' the transfer before you get the technology.

unrestrcited tech trade makes 4x games more fun, unless your suck at diplomacy and pay no attention to it.

I am just helping to add more weight to this forum so that Stardock seriously considers fixing the tech whoring problem. I am not a computer programer but I think the quickest and easiest way to do this so a patch can come out right away is to either simply allow an option to disallow tech trading or only allow the trading of researched techs. The "blueprints" idea sounds really cool, but also sounds like something that would take longer to program, which is not to say they could do it in a future patch. However, based on what I have read in this thread, PLEASE STARDOCK PLEASE DO SOMETHING TO STOP TECH WHORING!!!! I speak for many, many fans of your game!

unrestrcited tech trade makes 4x games more fun, unless your suck at diplomacy and pay no attention to it.

I agree that it would lose some of the fun if it was too restricted. However, needing to research your own stuff seems like a good compromise because then that could be traded without restrictions (although perhaps with other penalties, especially if trading with less than friendly civilizations).

for 97, I agree, we need to be careful when changing the tech trading model. The tech trading is a very important part of a 4X game and we should not restrict it to much. We still need to make tech trading both a fun and strategical part of the game..

First step:
Options to

Disable research,
research trade only with alliance,
research trade only for researched techs.

Second step.

Lots of thinking. Some kind of tech transfer model would be cool.

BTW, Stardock I love your game and I just want to make it better.. And if you implement a new cool tech trading model you might even be legendary as this area as not evolved for a long long time.

My strike only lasted about two days. I just have to design some new ships.