drank drank

Economic bugs in 1.0X.009

▼

Economic bugs in 1.0X.009

Reproducing the known issues

from GalCiv2 Forums

To date, the developers have not paid much attention to the outstanding bugs in the economic model. I'm using "economic" rather broadly, to incorporate all the issues around the player's taxing, spending, manufacturing, bonuses, etc. 1.0X.009 took a few steps forward (social prodution bonuses, starbase research bonuses) but left the other issues untouched. In the hopes of drawing some attention from the devs to this part of the game, I've tried to re-verify all the known problems in 1.0X.009 and provide exact steps on how to reproduce them.

For what it's worth, as a fellow software developer, my guess is that Stardock does not have a written spec of how the economic model is supposed to work, just an in-game implementation of it. They obviously do not have systematic testing to confirm that it's working as designed in every build. What I cannot understand is why the developers are not paying more attention to these issues - for the most part, they've ignored these problem reports on the forums. I encorage others to add their known economic bugs to this thread, in the hopes of getting enough critical mass to attract the devs attention.



Bug 1: Social spending is charged when no build item is selected

The manual states on p. 30 says

Social Production, represented by hammers, is spent on projects.If you have no projects queued, the number above the hammers will be in parenthesis. In this case, the hammers are not drawing bc from your treasury.

Military production behaves as described. Social production does not. If you do not select a social project, the social production does not appear in parenthesis and is charged as spending.

Reproduce: Start a new game. Set socal rate to 100% and spending to 100%. Select nothing to build on your homeworld. The F4 screen will report total expenses of 1 maintenance + 26 social. Your homeworld will report 26 social production, and total spending of 27.

Edit3: Nastavnik pointed out this thead where Frogboy says this was by design, and was changed after the manual was completed. Apparently there is no way to avoid wasting social production.

Edit5: Frogboy confirmed later in this thread that this behavior is by design and the manual is wrong.



Bug 2: Only half of displayed research bonus is applied

A research production bonus does not supply as many bonus beakers as the equivalent production bonus does shields. It appears that 50% of the indicated bonus is being applied.

Reproduce: Start a new game choosing a 10% military production bonus, and no other production or research bonuses. Pick the technologist party for +20% research. Set military rate to 100% and spending to 100%. Select a starship to build on your homeworld. Confirm that the game shows Military +10% on the F6 statistics screen, and another +10% production on the homeworld details screen, for a total of +20% military production. Your homeworld is now producing 28 shields. 28 = Floor(24 * 1.2) so that is the expected value.

Now set research rate to 100%. Confirm that the game shows Research +20% on the F6 statistics screen. Your homeworld is now producing 26 beakers. 26 = Floor(24 * 1.1). You are only getting credit for half of the research bonus indicated by the game.

Edit5: Frogboy stated later in this thread that this behavior is by design. The empire-wide research bonus is not supposed to be applied at the displayed value.



Bug 3: Government production bonuses are not applied

Advanced government types state that they give bonuses to Economy, Production, and Research. After switching to an advanced government type, the economic bonus is observed in-game but the research and production are not observed.

Reproduce: Start a new game and play until you have researched one or more new government technologies (Interstellar Republic, Star Democracy, Star Federation). With your government set to Imperial, write down the observed Taxes, Military, Social and Research values from the F4 screen and from your homeworld. Now switch to governments to Republic, which should provide +25% economy, +25% production, +25% research. Compare the F4 and homeworld values to the ones written down previously. Taxes has received a new bonus (the +25%) but the other numbers have not changed. Repeat with Democracy and Federation, and observe that each time the economic bonus is applied, but not the production and research bonus.

Edit5: Frogboy stated later in this thread that governments are only supposed to give economic bonuses. Apparently this is a text bug in the change government screen.



Bug 4: Virtual Reality Center gives lower morale bonus than Zero G Sports Arena

A Virtual Reality Center provides +40% morale, replacing the Zero G Sports Arena which provided +55% morale, despite the expensive upgrade cost. Moreover, once the player has researched the Virtual Reality Centers technology, they are no longer able to build any of the better Zero G Sports Arena buildings on any of their planets.

Reproduce: Open \GalCiv2\Data\English\PlanetImprovements.xml. Compare lines 882 and 906.



Bug 5: Stock Market gives lower economic bonus than Banking Center

A Stock Market provides +15% economic bonus (and +10% morale, +5% influence), replacing the Banking Center which provided +24% economic bonus (and no morale or influence bonuses), despite an expensive upgrade cost. Moreover, one the player has researched the Galactic Stock Exchanges technology, they are no longer able to build the superior Banking Center buildings on any of their planets.

Although the player gets additional morale and influence bonuses from a stock market, these are much smaller than the bonuses provided from the dedicated buildings of those types. The player is better served by combining Banking Centers with morale and influence buildings, than by "upgrading" to Stock Markets.

Reproduce: Open \GalCiv2\Data\English\PlanetImprovements.xml. Compare lines 956 and 979.



Bug 6: Text description of morale improvments is incorrect

Morale bonuses, resources, buildings and trade good all state that they provide an x% morale boost (15%, 40%, etc.). Any given planet will not, in fact, improve by x% after building/acquiring the indicated bonus. If fBaseMorale = (100% - unhappiness due to population), then a planetary improvement will improve a planet's morale by fBaseMorale * x%. An empire-wide improvement will improve it by (fBaseMorale * x%) ^ 0.75.

Morale improvement text descriptions should accurately describe the amount of bonus given to the player for building the improvement. If the developers find it difficult to succinctly explain this in in-game text, perhaps they can ponder what benefits such a complicated formula for morale is providing to players.

Edit5: Frogboy stated later in this thread that this behavior is by design. There is supposed to be no straightforward relationship between the displayed +x% morale value and the actual morale improvement it will yield.



(Edit: Added the problem reported by marioflag)

Bug 7: Population Growth bonus has no effect

The population growth racial ability, trade good and bonuses have no effect in the game. Population appears to grow at a constant rate whether these bonuses are present or not.

Reproduce: Start a new game with no population bonus. Confirm that none appears on the F6 statistics screen. Leave everything else at the default settings and hit the turn button 10 times, writing down the population of your homeworld on each turn. Start a second game with a 70% racial population growth bonus. Confirm that it's shown as 70% on the F6 statistics screen. Again, click the turn button 10 times and write down the population of your homeworld on each turn. Here are the observed values in game:

Turn 1Turn 2Turn 3 Turn 4Turn 5Turn 6Turn 7Turn 8Turn 9Turn 10
0% bonus5.0B5.13B5.25B5.38B5.48B5.58B5.68B5.78B5.88B5.98B
70% bonus5.0B5.13B5.25B5.38B5.48B5.58B5.68B5.78B5.88B5.98B

The Population Growth bonus has no observable effect.



(Edit2: Added the problem reported by defimus below)

Bug 8: Text description of starbase research bonus is missing

On the planet detail screen, the research bonus supplied by starbases is missing. Only the prodution bonus is displayed. The research bonus from starbases appears to be calculated correctly, it is just not displayed to the player.

Reproduce: Start a new game with no research bonus. Confirm that none appears on the F6 statistics screen. Set research rate to 100% and spending to 100%. Set the research target to Basic Logistics - you do NOT want to research anything that will give you an empire-wide research bonus. Complete the following build plan:

  • Turn 1: Buy Basic Lab. Buy constructor. Homeworld research = 29.
  • Turn 2: Buy Basic Lab. Use constructor for economic starbase adjacent to homeworld. Buy another constructor. Homeword research = 34.
  • Turn 3: Use constructor to add Starbase Factory (+3% miltary, social, research). Homeworld research = 35.

Note that research is, correctly calculated as floor((24+5+5) * 1.03) = 35. On the planet details screen, the starbase bonus reads "Production +3%". It should also say "Research +3%" to reflect the bonus being applied.



(Edit4: Added the following problems reported by skam240 below)

Bug 9: Debt is capped at -2000BC

If you buy a large ticket item or a mass upgrade, and the resultant cost would take you below -2000BC, it will be capped at -2000BC. This thread discusses the problem. It also contains a post by Frogboy stating that this behavior is by design. So it's noted here mostly as an unintuitive way to save yourself tens of thousands of BCs late in the game.

Reproduce: Play the game until you are low on cash. Purchase an item that would take your treasury below -2000BC, such as a Trade Good. After the purchase, you will have the Trade Good, but your treasury will remain at -2000BC. You will have been credited the difference between the purchase price and -2000BC for free.



Bug 10: Secret Police Center project gives lower morale improvement than Entertainment Network

The Secret Police Center super project has a cost of 600 and provides a morale boost of +20% on the planet where it is built. The Entertainment Network is available at the start of the game, and provides a bonus of +25% at a cost of 55. The Secret Police Center is also more expensive and less powerful than the Multimedia Center (+30%/100), Extreme Stadium (+45%/250), Zero G Sports Arena (+55%/400) and Virtual Reality Center (+40%/500).

The player would be better off building any standard morale improvemnt building in the game rather than Secret Police Center project.

Reproduce: Open \GalCiv2\Data\English\PlanetImprovements.xml. Compare lines 710 and 812.
32,475 views 63 replies
Reply #26 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Here's another issue for this thread

Link

Summary: Harmoney crystals and secret police only give +20 for morale. These techs are very far down the tech tree. Techs closer to the beginning offer greater morale bonuses and are likely to have been researched before the crystals and secret police making placing these advanced structures typically a waste of a tile.
Reply #27 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I'm going to just add that the developers seem to address the STRANGEST and least consequential problems in their patches, ignoring the really big bugs!

I agree with all the above bugs. The problem is that these bugs are "under the hood". They are not immediately observable by the casual player or (MUCH more importantly) game reviewers.

So the devs just SWEEP THEM UNDER THE RUG!
Siege of Centauri
Reply #28 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Citizen drank, 3 cheers.

You obviously took some time to gather data and present it in a clear, straightforward manner. For this, you deserve praise.

Note to stardock: clear and straightforward data garners deserving praise, confounding and obfuscated data... not so much.

Perhaps we should develop, for the collective good of forum readers, a list of Racial Abilities that *do* work as promised. I'm beginning to suspect that it will be a rather shorter list than we were initially led to believe.
Reply #29 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

Item #1: Social production. Has been addressed several times. It's a not a bug. The manual is incorrect.

Item #2: Research Bonuses.  We don't claim that a given bonus does a literal X% multiplication of your production.  We balance the game based on play testing until we feel a given bonus feels right.

Item #3: I don't recall any place claiming that star democracy, for instance, doing anything other than prtoviding a bonus to your economy. 

Item #4: That sounds like a bug. Will look into it.

Item #5: Ditto.

Item #6: This is not a bug.  Again, it's all when the multipliciation occurs. Buildings do their % to the BASE morale of a planet. Then other things come into play that affect morale. They are working as designed.

Item #7: Population Growth does work as designed. However, there was a cap of 200k in the population growth so in essence, the ability simply didn't do any good becuse the cap always came into play. However, in 1.0X I personally changed this so that it should provide a benefit.

Item #8: Bug though cosmetic.  I will mention this. The starbase is applying its benefit though even if it's not being displayed.

Reply #30 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Frogboy, I aprreciate you taking the time to look over the list. Here are a couple of comments.

Item #2, #6: I'll note your response in the original post, but don't you feel it's exetremely misleading and counter-intuitive to show the player a "+40%" bonus when they in fact receive a much smaller bonus. If it's unbalanced to have "+20% Research Ability" as a racial bonus, then wouldn't it be better to reduce the magnitude of the available bonuses in the game setup, but give the player the stated value of the bonus they selected.

Item #3: the text description of the forms of government is found in the description of the government in the F6 government screen when you try to change your government. It reads, e.g., "Republic, Economic Bonus +25%, Industrial Bonus +25%, Research Bonus +25%".

Item #7: I obtained the values in the original post (showing no effect) by testing with 1.0X.009. I suggest you try the reproduction steps outlined there and see if you have the same results.

For the others, I'll edit the original post to note the ones that are intended game mechancs.
Reply #31 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

Item #2: It depends.  There are so many things that can affect your ability in those areas. Star bases, initial starting conditions, random events. 

But at the end of the day, the player abilities are not generally intended to provide a raw X% multipllier to production.  They're simply your civlization's native ability +X%. 

I'm not saying the way we did it is ideal. It should be documented better for instance.  I'm just saying it's working as designed. 

Item #3: Then that's a clear glitch in the text display.  As the designer and the one who implemented the code, I can assure you that the text description should not say that.  I will see that that is changed.

Item #7: I just rechecked the code.  Here's the issue: The population increase is capped at 100 and then if morale = 100% you still get that bonus.  Population is simply increasing so much that the bonus is meaningless.

What needs to be changed is that the population ability bonus is applied AFTER the cap has been implemented.  I'm going to do that right now actually.

 

Reply #32 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

Here is how it looks now:

if(lPopulationChange > 100)

  lPopulationChange = 100;

if(lMorale >75)

  lPopulationChange *=1.25;

if(lMorale == 100)

  lPopulationChange *=2;

fPopulationBonus = 1.0 + ((float) pCiv->GetAbility(ABILITY_POPULATIONGROWTH)/ 100.0f);

lPopulationChange = lPopulationChange * fPopulationBonus;
Reply #34 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
"If you do not select a social project, the social production does not appear in parenthesis and is charged as spending."

"Item #1: Social production. Has been addressed several times. It's a not a bug. "

Can someone explain me why? It makes no sense to pay if I don't build anything...
Reply #35 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Item #7: I just rechecked the code. Here's the issue: The population increase is capped at 100 and then if morale = 100% you still get that bonus. Population is simply increasing so much that the bonus is meaningless.
What needs to be changed is that the population ability bonus is applied AFTER the cap has been implemented. I'm going to do that right now actually.


I haven't understood one thing probably for my not perfect english.If i get torians with 30% population bonus my population growth per turn will be 0,13 billion people per turn due to pop. growth bonus of 30%? if my morale is up to 100% my population growth is capped at 0,2 billion or i will get a doubled population growth at 0,26 billion?
Reply #36 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Someone correct me. Why can't I continue to build no-maintanance basic factories/research etc, after I have unlocked the next appropriate tech?
Reply #37 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Thanks for the great post Drank.

Frogboy said about the morale bonuses:
Item #6: This is not a bug. Again, it's all when the multipliciation occurs. Buildings do their % to the BASE morale of a planet. Then other things come into play that affect morale. They are working as designed.


Could somebody explain how the morale building bonuses work? If I build two of the same morale buildings on a planet? If I have two different buildings on a planet that improve morale?
Reply #38 from GalCiv2 Forums Top


Item #7: I just rechecked the code. Here's the issue: The population increase is capped at 100 and then if morale = 100% you still get that bonus. Population is simply increasing so much that the bonus is meaningless.
What needs to be changed is that the population ability bonus is applied AFTER the cap has been implemented. I'm going to do that right now actually.



I haven't understood one thing probably for my not perfect english.If i get torians with 30% population bonus my population growth per turn will be 0,13 billion people per turn due to pop. growth bonus of 30%? if my morale is up to 100% my population growth is capped at 0,2 billion or i will get a doubled population growth at 0,26 billion?


From Frogboy's code snippet above, it looks like it would work like this for the Torians:

when morale < 75, growth = 0.1B * 1.3 = 0.13B per turn
when morale > 75 and < 100, growth = 0.1B * 1.25 * 1.3 = 0.16B per turn
when morale = 100, growth = 0.1B * 1.25 * 2 * 1.3 = 0.32B per turn

We can try it when the next patch comes out and see for sure. But his change makes it look like the population bonues will have a significant impact.
Reply #39 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Thanks for the replies drank and Frogboy. Unfortuantely, I am now more confused then ever in regards to research and morale bonuses. I guess I will keep playing blindly here. Also disappointed about the social production issue.

I can see that going forward I will no longer be creating any custom race that has social, research or moral bonuses as the mechanics for these are so obsured as to be worthless, or in the case of social production bonuses, actually a penalty.
Reply #40 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
when morale = 100, growth = 0.1B * 1.25 * 2 * 1.3 = 0.32B per turn


drank i'm not sure but probably when morale is 100 and you are TORIANS the population is only doubled so it should be 0,1B*2*1,3=0,26billion

1,25 modifier should be only applied when morale is between 75 and 100
Reply #41 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

Thanks for the replies drank and Frogboy. Unfortuantely, I am now more confused then ever in regards to research and morale bonuses. I guess I will keep playing blindly here. Also disappointed about the social production issue.

I can see that going forward I will no longer be creating any custom race that has social, research or moral bonuses as the mechanics for these are so obsured as to be worthless, or in the case of social production bonuses, actually a penalty.

When I play, I crank these up.  So I guess it depends on how you define a penalty.  A good player will usually have trouble keeping the industry producing as fast as their economy.

Moreover, social, research, and military production abilities are not charged for.  You get that production for free.

Reply #42 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
When I play, I crank these up. So I guess it depends on how you define a penalty. A good player will usually have trouble keeping the industry producing as fast as their economy.


I agree here - usually my economy outstrips production. I should clarify that social production bonuses would be very helpful yet early game. But, end game, when you are focused almost entirely on military and you are looking for funds to upgrade a large number ships (which is very expensive no matter how strong your economy) or quickly build an additional fleet or two, social production becomes a burden under the current system.

Moreover, social, research, and military production abilities are not charged for. You get that production for free.


That is great to know, and I was not aware of that, which grealy changed my opinion here on these bonuses

I guess in the end the game is fairly well balanced around the mechanics in place - even if we disagree about, or are confused about how some of those mechanics work. I think what most of us here are simply looking for is a better understanding of how things work, and in some cases better documentation in the game or elsewhere, or some changes to clarify what is really going on inside our economies so we can make good in-game decisions that have the impacts we are looking for. I think we can all agree that it is not as much fun playing a black box where the actual outcomes vary considerably from the predicted results that the game led you to believe.
Reply #43 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
When I play, I crank these up. So I guess it depends on how you define a penalty. A good player will usually have trouble keeping the industry producing as fast as their economy.

Moreover, social, research, and military production abilities are not charged for. You get that production for free.


Frogboy:

Will there ever be a place where new players can go that explains once and for all how game mechanics work?

The manual is insufficient or wrong. Your explanations, regardless of whether they correctly explain different aspects of the system, are incomplete and unclear to most viewers (including this one). I believe that it is unreasonable to design a game that forces players to search forums endlessly to figure out how to play it correctly. Stardock owes it to it's customers to publish an official resource that explains:

1. Exactly how the economy works, including all underlying factors and how they affect gameplay.
2. Exactly how combat works, including all numerical bonuses and penalties. We still don't even know whether combat rolls go from 0-n or 1-n yet!
3. A glossary defining all technical terms in the game, explaining exactly which term relates to which aspect of the game. This is glaringly true regarding many of the random events, which give you bonuses that have different names from the abilities they affect! Example, the Space Pirates on a newly settled world giving you +x% to "Starship" ability, even though no such ability is mentioned anywhere! What does this give you? There are many other examples.

Why come on the forums and debate everybody, when you could simply write a big article explaining everything clearly and post it? As it is now when I have a problem with gameplay I never know:

A) Whether SD intended it in the first place (bug or feature? problem).
B) Whether it is a real problem or whether I'm looking at it wrong (transparency problem).
C) Whether the problem is significant (transparency).

If you spend any time on these forums you will see that there are about 5-10 redundant posts on every significant gameplay issue, with people fruitlessly posting multiple times to get answers from SD and getting incomplete or unsatisfying answers. Please save everybody the time and trouble by publishing SD's official stance on all gameplay issues, along with what I've requested above.
Reply #44 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
You made the game Frogboy, so naturally you will make changes as you see fit. Also, you may think everyones complaint on social production is unfounded because it is operating "by design". Also, to me it seems that many of the bonus values given for various improvements, technologies, racial abilities etc. are not direct translations when applied to all the mathmatical calculations. Therefore, to the casual observer it appears that everything is messed up.

Also, it seems that some late game improvements are in fact detrimental or worthless. Is this true, or by design?

Despite the complaints, this is a great game and has even greater potential. But please, write us an encyclopedia that explains the mechanics in detail. We really need this to understand the game, and play it effectively. Otherwise, this will continue to be one of the most ambiguous games ever.
Reply #45 from Stardock Forums Top
Moreover, social, research, and military production abilities are not charged for. You get that production for free.

Now that is strange. I have done the following:
custom race, +30 to military, +30 to social, + 30 to research, galactic warfare (+10 mil), xeno engineering (+10 social)
My home planet got a moon.

On start, I set a colony ship in the military and something in the social queue. I set 100% general spending.
If I set 100% military, I have 35 BC on the planetary screen and 33 on the budget.
Since the colony is producing 24, 24*0.4 = 9.6 = 9
So 35 = 24 + 9 from empire bonus + 2 from moon.
So the military bonus isn't free.

if setting 100% social, it is exactly the same numbers

if setting 100% research, production is 28 and paid are 25.
24 * 0.3 /2 = 12 *0.3 = 3.6 = 3 free research
24 * 0.3/6 = 4*0.3 = 1.2 = 1 paid research.

SO Frogboy I am sorry, but telling that
social, research, and military production abilities are not charged for. You get that production for free.

Is innacurrate: Only moon production is free. Social and military empire wide bonus are paid. And for research, 50% of the bonus is tranlated into free research and 1/6 of the bonus into paid research.
Reply #46 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Thanks Phoenix - was going to test that as well since I surely hadn't noticed it being the case before.
Reply #47 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Peace Phoenix i'm sure you are absolutely right in your calculations so there is something i'm lacking.........but if i have 30% bonus research calculations shouldn't be: 24*0,3=7,2rounded to 7. So i'll get 24+7=31 research.
why you divide the bonus for 2? and why in paid research you add 1 point to be paid. Or u divide the bonus for 6?
Reply #48 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
but if i have 30% bonus research calculations shouldn't be: 24*0,3=7,2rounded to 7. So i'll get 24+7=31 research.
why you divide the bonus for 2? and why in paid research you add 1 point to be paid. Or u divide the bonus for 6?

Well, I have made tests and come with the following formula:
- 50 % of the research bonus is converted into free research
- 1/6 (roughly 18%) of the research bonus is converted into paid research.

As sais by Frogboy:
Item #2: Research Bonuses. We don't claim that a given bonus does a literal X% multiplication of your production. We balance the game based on play testing until we feel a given bonus feels right.
Reply #49 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Item #1: Social production. Has been addressed several times. It's a not a bug. The manual is incorrect.


I'm just a humble casual gamer, and you're the designer, so who am I to say, but ... I just don't like it. Too bad I suppose, but here are some thoughts.

The reason for taking it out, IIRC from your other posts, were the big changes in income when social upgrades happened automatically from tech breakthoughs. I'm assuming this is a problem because one moment you think you are rich, and the next you are running a big deficit, and this really screws with planning.

One thought I have for this, taken out of the pages of corporate finance, is to account for the income in a slightly different way. Companies often exclude different things from their reported profit (e.g. depreciation, tax, interest) and almost all report profit before income from exceptional items. The point here is that you could show the bc value as per usual, which is your normal profit number, but not count the surplus from unused social production as part of it, which are excpetional items in frequency and size (if they weren't, they wouldn't mess up the planning process in the first place). You just drop it straight into the treasury and report it as an expectional item on the detailed income and expense screen.

The advantage is that you still get the money, but you also get a more steady profit number reported.
Reply #50 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
well so research bonus is really misleading.This formula is very strange i don't understand why if i have 20% research bonus i should get a research bonus which is the half part and i should pay this research for 1/6????wasn't simplier if the formula was applied as it is shown?so should be two the things to do
1.if i get 20% research bonus i should get 20% research bonus or
2. race abilities, improvements and tech bonus should get their real research bonus so iconians should get a +10%research bonus for example and should be expressely said that 1/6 of your research bonus is paid.
I vehemently suggest the first option.
I really don't understand why research bonus is implented in a so strange and misleading way boh!