Budgeting is STILL Fracked in GC2??

MOO2 looks downright sophisticated by comparison

OK, quick summary:

I heard GalCiv 1 was a great game, bought it, was horrified at how utterly primitive the budgeting and resource management was, gave up on it and found my old dusty CD of MOO2 to play instead (out of nostalgia and the need to play SOME sort of galactic strategy game).

However, I figured that the budget and resource management was one of those things that "happens" when you have a non-mainstream developer with their own ideas... I knew the AI and other aspects of the game got high marks, so I figured, the sequel will fix these obvious weaknesses for sure.

To my horror, I bought GC2, only to find it STILL has the same stupid, abstract, crude, worthless budgeting system as the original. I still have "Military, Social, and Research" to choose from at the galactic level. Oh, wait! I can also have a planet "specialize" MOSTLY in ONE thing. Who the hell thought up this approach??

I could come up with a well-written list of suggestions and ways that it should have been done, but to be honest, I'm to fracking mad at the developers right now. Suffice it to say, this game has the worst approach to resource management of any game I have ever played (except GC1), and I've been playing computer strategy games for 25 years.

Time to go play some X-Com.
31,824 views 38 replies
Reply #1 Top
You mean it doesn't have some highly "advanced" system like CivIV does where you only have only two sliders and have to choose between building an improvement or making a unit? That's your idea of progress?

Reply #2 Top
I could come up with a well-written list of suggestions and ways that it should have been done, but to be honest, I'm to fracking mad at the developers right now.


Very helpful, this is why people don't know what you don't like about the system.

MoO2 had farming, building, and researching. You put people and money into the category.

GC2 focus on building (military), building (social), and researching. You put in money for the category. There aren't that much of a difference. Just view it as GC has more advanced technology and they don't need people to do everything.
Reply #3 Top
I could come up with a well-written list of suggestions and ways that it should have been done, but to be honest, I'm to fracking mad at the developers right now

Well, why don't you? I would love to read your suggestions for improving the game. If your ideas are really good, Stardock might implement them.
Reply #4 Top
All of these haters are annoying. They are mad that their game of choice is utter drivel compared to this one.

Boohoo...
Reply #5 Top
I haven't played Civ4, so I couldn't comment on it -- I've just about given up on Sid Meier doing another groundbreaking game... he's just putting new makeup on the same girl. I would prefer any of the earlier Civs to GalCiv's system, however.

I loved the way MOO2 had discrete worker population units... you could actually move them around to the worlds they were best suited for... races had particular advantages/disadvantages, etc. Of course that micromanagement became a pain later in the game, but there are ways to fix that with good game design... good governors, customizeable governors, etc.

What I really dislike is the global management implementation in GalCiv -- it wouldn't be so bad if it automatically adjusted individual planets' output to reflect their situation, but the game doesn't seem to do that.

I also wish these Civ-type strategy games would use better economic models... they over-abstractify everything, when modern computers are capable of so much more. I would like to see "SimCity" type technology applied to one of these games -- I don't mean it would look like a Sim game, I mean it would use the level of modeling that Sim games do. One thing I did like about Rome: Total War was how you could upgrade your port infrastructure and the game would automatically establish logical trade networks (with cool animated ships criss-crossing the Med). It was still crude, but better than what either GalCiv or Civ are doing. After ~15 years the economic engine in Civ has not fundamentally changed... they just add more blinking lights to the same old garbage.

I have a lot of other complaints/suggestions, but I'll hold off until I'm not so pissed off and disappointed. Try to understand, I was telling an old friend of mine earlier this evening the details about GC2, and he was stunned... we both have this "where's my flying car?" reaction to the state of strategy gaming... when MOO2 and Civ2 came out (10 YEARS AGO), we put together a list of features we thought should be put in Civ3 or MOO3... the only thing that's happened is "custom ship design", and while GC2's implemention is very impressive in eye candy (more than I was hoping for) the actual combat modeling isn't... I'm not even convinced the battle engine is on par with MOO2. I would have liked to see something closer to Starfleet Command with the ability to design custom ships.
Reply #6 Top
Haterz.
Reply #7 Top
I prefer the abstraction. I dint' want to be an economist. I just want to conquer the world/universe when I am playing this time of game.

Tony
Reply #8 Top
Ummm...what exactly do you want, dude? Something that ACTUALLY looks like a spreadsheet? Quite frankly, I can tell from some of your posts that you probably grew up playing hex-based wargames that actually did use little spreadsheets to calculate your economy. Guess what? Those aren't fun games to most people these days. I'm not sure why, and I actually own Federation & Empire but nobody will play it with me. GalCiv2's system is just as complex as MOO2's. MOO2 had an ENTIRELY unrealistic system allowing you to move discrete population units around like pieces on a chessboard. That makes no damn sense at all. At least GalCiv2 doesn't link everything to population. Do you think it really matters if yuo have 5 billion or 10 billion people to your mostly automated factories? No, it doesn't. Finally, a game where you don't die if you don't have the most population. That's what made MOO2 so silly in some regards (though I still love it) -- the "master race" was a Creative Subterranean race with as many negative points as required to get that. That was it, end of story. You win because you get all the tech and because you have more people. Thanks but no thanks, I'll take the much more interesting GalCiv2 system.

Yes, some of the economic stuff is a little confusing, and I wouldn't mind a more individualized way to do it, BUT then you have a game like MOO3 which was terrible. So really, GalCiv strikes the perfect balance between fun and making sense. Go play a modern board game like TI3 and then come back and try to complain about GalCiv2. Sheesh.

And aren't you too old to be whining like a 10 year old?
Reply #9 Top
Well, you also largely control what a planet produces, by deciding on which sort of buildings/facilities there are.

Anyway, what I don't like about the system is that I don't always get how the product is calculated. Like a planet seemingly has factories, but isn't producing much production. But that's mostly a feedback issue, not design. i think it's pretty good as is. Simple, but gives you a pretty decent amount of control.

a realistic sort of game would be more like sim city, economy wise. Rather than controlling the economy absolutely, you'd merely influence it by zoning and laws and such, and let private enterprise do the rest, rather than seemingly everything being nationalized.
Reply #10 Top
Nerva, try Jagged Alliance 2. It's the best game since X-COM in that genre. Probably better than X-COM, in fact... certainly a lot funnier.
Reply #11 Top
i think nerva really does prefer spreadsheets. So, in that case I recommend MOO3 for him. It is a game so overly complicated and the best part for nerva is that its one giant ugly spreadsheet. He should love it.
Reply #12 Top
No, I've never played a hex-based boardgame. If you think I'm into total micromanagement you're wrong. The case I'm trying to make is for a very sophisticated (complicated) model UNDERNEATH that is very intuitive to understand at a high level because it simply seems "realistic" in how it actually behaves. In fact, by making the game more sophisticated underneath, you actually make it pointless for someone to try and "spreadsheet" the game -- there are to many details involved for them to easily analyze and predict it. Someone has already written a GalCiv space combat simulator... it is simple enough that people can "game" it within a few days of release.

In Civ2/Civ3 they added "trade routes"... you'd have to build a unit and send it to another city... great... more micromanagement... you have to figure out what goods you want to trade, what cities would be the highest profit, etc... BORING. This is why I mentioned the Rome: Total War example... you build a bigger port. It can handle more trade. The game figures out what the most profitable routes are and sets up the trade routes -- you never even see the calculations. SIMPLE. But it modeled something "realistic" -- in real life the Romans built infrastructure that encouraged trade.

There are a lot of old game conventions that I wish would go away and be replaced by things that are more interesting. Most of these strategy games have a trade-off between tax rate and population growth. Why? It's extremely artificial... simply there for "strategy". There are other ways to have high taxes negatively impact the player... you could have it negatively impact trade, economic development, an increase in black market and piracy.... things that are actually "realistic" (I say that knowing this is a sci-fi game so realism is very subjective).

Trancejeremy brings up the need for another old game convention to go away: the goofy nationalized economies that all of these games use. I build a factory, then decide what it should make... and if it isn't making it fast enough, I can get it the next turn by "spending money"... yeah, because that's how things are done in real life, right. DUMB. OK, I admit, this was a perfectly good way of doing things 15 years ago when you had 4MB of RAM to play with, but we can do far better today. Instead, there should be some level of private industry, and part of the player's strategies would be in helping his economy to grow, by building trading hubs, etc. Get rid of the excessive player built factories, farms, and other improvements... it's BORING micromanagement... instead have a sophisticated model of private industry that takes care of it for you. The player would simply buy things he needs with money... it's what we use in real life.

A lot of these mechanics are already implemented in Sim and Tycoon style games... last I checked they sold pretty well... all that needs to happen is to replace the old, crude mechanics used in Civ style games with what's used in economic strategy games. Trade can be one of the most interesting parts of a strategy game, particularly when it is done realistically and with a lot of behind-the-scenes detail.

Here's another idea: many research advances, in addition to giving you the typical technological benefits, would also create new types of goods, with new demands for natural resources, etc. For example, in a Civ-style game, if I invent "steel", it doesn't simply improve the quality of my weapons, it also allows people in my civ to become employed in the steel industry, it drives demand for iron ore from regions that produce it, and it might make my citizens a lot of money from selling steel to other civs that can't make it. If I purchase a battleship, it might drive demand for steel much higher. Cities that are close to iron mines and also shipyards might grow rapidly and employ many people in the steel industry -- with no micromanagement on my part. Or I could build a rail line to enable more efficient access to iron mines. I could tax imported steel to try and protect my own steel industry, or I could go the free-trade route, or I could ban exports of it because I don't want to give my enemies access to steel. And so on. It opens up all sorts of strategies that are both more realistic and interesting than simply "You have invented STEEL: +1 to armor, +1 to weapons".

Speaking of hexes, I do think a great improvement could be made in Civ games if they went to a spherical world with hexes... they work great for that. I have pictures of the Earth's terrain rendered in various hex resolutions... even without the extra realism, it LOOKS way cooler... and with today's mice-wheels and extra buttons you would have no trouble navigating around the globe. The globe in X-Com was one of its more distinctive and cool features IMO, particularly with the day/night cycles... again it surprises me what progress hasn't been made over the years.
Reply #13 Top
This is why I mentioned the Rome: Total War example... you build a bigger port. It can handle more trade. The game figures out what the most profitable routes are and sets up the trade routes -- you never even see the calculations. SIMPLE. But it modeled something "realistic" -- in real life the Romans built infrastructure that encouraged trade


Actually, I would think that's eye-candy there. You don't really do much but build a bigger port.
Essentially:
Bigger structure, more profit.

How do I achieve this in galciv?
Bigger population+Market, more tax

Granted that they are essentially the same thing but the first one looks better. Now that you mention it though, it is kind of strange for an interstellar empire to have to bother setting up trade-routes. I guess it's just one of those things that people want to manually control. There is a fine line between empire building and colony building that is very hard to discern.
If you try to get rid of all the micro-manage part, it will become MoO3. It feels like there isn't much you can do to affect the outcome. I want to get a new weapon tech! Sorry, mate, you might get it next turn if we have a breakthrough, or you might get it 15 turns later due to sabotage and incompetence from our scientists. By then your ships have gone well into production and it will be pain upgrading them to the new weapons to fend off the enemy.


Lastly, I think it is not fair that some of the posters here just started calling you a hater. There is something you dislike/hate about the game, that's fine. What I didn't like about your original post was that you just said you dislike the game without giving much of a reason or how it can improved. That would not be helpful or beneficial to anyone. What you dislike about the game will stay there. People will be frustrated just like you are because you wouldn't make yourself clear. That's why I think it would be a lot better if you can voice your opinion, which you have started. Now we will see where this goes.
Reply #14 Top
Quickest way to puff up yourself is to put down people with actual accomplishments.



"Plato, Socrates? Idiots."
Reply #15 Top

Actually, I would think that's eye-candy there. You don't really do much but build a bigger port.
Essentially:
Bigger structure, more profit.

How do I achieve this in galciv?
Bigger population+Market, more tax

I see the point you're getting at but I think you've missed the distinction I was trying to make WRT Rome: Total War. In the case of a port, it actually figures out every turn what the most profitable trade routes are, and these will change as other cities develop. Different provinces have different resources with different local market prices. Your relations with other factions will also determine how profitable the routes are, and of course your ports can also be blockaded during wartime.

So, from my perspective, that's a step up from the typical "I built this improvement X my population = my income" that we've had to put up with. I understand your point that it's just extra details added to a simple concept, but I always liked it when someone would post to the RTW message board asking why their trade had dried up, and someone would point out it was because they went to war with a neighbor -- that's the downside of automating these things... the player wasn't paying attention how much his economy was dependant on trade with someone he declared war on.

Rome: Total War is anything but a sophisticated strategy game... that's actually what shocked me about it... they put a tiny feature in it that I thought was new and added flavor to the game... just the sort of small feature that I thought should have been in Civ2 or Civ3 as an organic part of the game.

I haven't played MOO3... the reviews were terrible so I didn't bother. I see your point that ultimately we play these games so that we can control things, and when the "model" is so complicated and there are very few knobs for the player to turn, then it ruins the game. I agree. However, I do think that there are a lot of low-level things that should be automated, not only because it makes the game more fun, but also because it's not the right sort of control anyway -- few would argue that the President of the USA doesn't have quite a bit of power and choices to make... however, he doesn't sit down and figure out that Los Angeles should have a trade route with Hong Kong. No, not at all. He sits down with the leader of China and agrees on a trade policy, and the trade then happens on its own based on those rules. He might also get legislation through Congress to fund a billion-dollar upgrade of the Port of Los Angeles. That's the sort of control he has, and that's what I'd like to see in Civ and GalCiv type strategy games.

Ultimately, also, once you have a robust economic model, you can use it all sorts of ways within the game. People were mentioning the stupid way that GC1 would penalize you for conquering a neighbor... you'd make less money through domestic trade than through foreign trade... totally absurd. Well, if you have a robust economic model of supply, demand, resources, etc... you can use the same model for external trade as for internal trade... the goods just want to "flow" to all the right places because of the mechanics of the game. You can put up barriers to trade via policy... and internal trade would be negatively impacted by your tax rate... it reduces your level of economic activity.

In a game like Civ, one of the things that bothered me was how the largest city in the USA was somewhere in IOWA. Why? Because that's where the food was. Well, of course, that's not how it works in the real world. Rome was the largest city in the world during the time of the Roman Empire, and it wasn't because it was surrounded by prime farmland... it was because they had trade infrastructure that made the place where hundreds of thousands of people did business, and that same infrastructure enabled it to be supplied with food from Egypt and North Africa... nowhere near Rome.

In a game like GalCiv, I'd like to see the same sort of reasoning put into the economics... why would people live where they would? Where would trade take place? Where would the resources be? How would they move the resources to where they were needed? The player doesn't need to be able to calculate all of those things, or even know exactly what the game is doing, but if the game does it, the gameplay is much better IMO.

For example, from what I've read of Starbases, they're just another stupid "bonus" you build. Wouldn't it be interesting if they were truly centers of trade (the equivalent of cities)... the player could strategically place them to benefit his economy by making trade easier.

I also have a rule of thumb that I'm not interested in aspects of a game like Civ or GalCiv that dwell on stuff that I would laugh if I saw it in a movie. Yeah, sure, "realism" is a foggy thing in sci-fi setting like GalCiv, but even in FICTIONAL universes like Babylon 5, Battlestar Galactical, Star Trek, etc, you would burst out laughing if there was an episode where the commander explained they were building an "Cultural Starbase" as part of their government's overall strategy for galactic domination. I know people want to be able to win via some sort of cultural domination, just to have another option besides military assault, but come on... everyone talks about American culture taking over the world, but you don't see the borders of the USA advancing north into Canada or south into Mexico -- "Tijuana defects to the USA!" is not a headline I'll ever read in my lifetime. No, there are other ways something like that can be modeled. For example, if you are at a cultural disadvantage compared to a neighbor, your corruption might increase, or the political party of your neighbor might gain popularity... things that put your nation under indirect pressure.
Reply #16 Top
Nerva, while I see your points and I can't disagree with them in general, you simply should go and look for another game. The stuff you want here is so far from what GalCiv II is, you will never get it in this game, no matter how many upgrades and expansions there'll be.
Reply #17 Top
MOO2 had an ENTIRELY unrealistic system allowing you to move discrete population units around like pieces on a chessboard. That makes no damn sense at all.


Well, it makes sense that someone would WANT to do it, but you have a point that it's not "realistic" in an OPEN society. Stalin was notorious for moving ethnic groups around like pieces on a chessboard. Personally my solution there in a GalCiv game would be to make it one of those good/evil techs... the bad guys could forcibly relocate populations.

And for the record, the ultimate strategy in MOO2 was a civ with all the empire bonuses (like creative) that are bought with only racial penalties -- the first thing you do is conquer the Sakkra (if I remember) and replace your entire empire's population with their superior workers. I played a strategic rip-off of The Dominion from Star Trek DS9, with my own race confined to only my home world... I also picked the purple insect-style ship theme, and my warships were CRUISER size class with augmented engines and lots of other techs that made them really fast and hard to hit.... they were actually very successful... always used in powers of 3 of course.

Do you think it really matters if yuo have 5 billion or 10 billion people to your mostly automated factories?


Sorry to break this to you, but the answer is "yes" in the real world, and always will be. People are what get things done... the technology simply amplifies the productivity of each worker. Though I did like the way you could build robots in MOO2 (even if I never used them) ... that game had so many cool ideas packed into a single game it still amazes me.

Anyways, I agree with you though that it's important from a GAME DESIGN standpoint that population not be the ultimate strategic factor... but there are other ways of doing that than simply making them unimportant. China has always had the largest population in the world... sometimes it has made them powerful, sometimes they've been nearly helpless... the real world lessons learned in that would be where I would start for a good game design that allows population to be a factor but not the only one.

Again, Egypt could support the largest population in the ancient world, and the Romans conquered it with very little trouble... it ended up supplying grain to Rome and Constantinople (the largest cities in the world at their peaks) for the next 700 years or so. Again, real-world lessons to be learned there... plug them into the game design.

MoO3. It feels like there isn't much you can do to affect the outcome. I want to get a new weapon tech! Sorry, mate, you might get it next turn if we have a breakthrough, or you might get it 15 turns later due to sabotage and incompetence from our scientists. By then your ships have gone well into production and it will be pain upgrading them to the new weapons to fend off the enemy.


Now, the unfortunate irony there is that in the REAL WORLD, scientific discoveries don't work to timetables... it actually bugs me that any game would tell you "3 turns to next tech" and it arrives like clockwork 3 turns later. In real life the world has been working on fusion tech for probably half a century now... still no luck. I live in California where our government tried to simpy impose electric car tech on the planet... oops, sorry... batteries suck and will continue to suck, because that's what batteries do... they suck... they're a fundamentally hard way to store energy. Just ask the US Navy how much they'd like miracle batteries if they could get them for their submarines.

Perhaps there could be a distinction between theoretical and applied research... theoretical would have a lot of variability involved and would be the risky strategy part of the game, while applied would be more easily estimated and the sort of thing you could pick up and run with... essentially the engineering part of the equation.
Reply #18 Top
That's the problem I see with my generation. We are constantly sitting by and shouting "WHY DON'T PEOPLE DO THINGS 'X' Way?" "THE WORLD WOULD BE BETTER IF PEOPLE WOULD JUST DO 'X'". As I get older, I see it more and more from the people of my age group, and I even catch myself doing it. Instead of criticzing and complaining DO SOMETHING.

The good people at Stardock "DID SOMETHING" instead of whining about it. They had an idea for a video game and they made it. Is it perfect? Are they? Of course not. The game is pretty good though. I enjoy it, and I think it was money well spent.

Nerva, you have an idea for a game, why don't you get off your ass (pardon my vocarity) and go DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. Make this game you want to play. If it's good other people might even play it.. You might even find out that getting from the Idea to the finished product is a long and troubled journey. When you're finished you might have a new perspective on what it takes to build something like Gal Civ 2, or MoO2 or Civilization, and maybe a little bit about the "REAL WORLD".
Reply #19 Top
maybe you should quit your job and become an accountant.
Reply #20 Top
Nerva, you have an idea for a game, why don't you get off your ass (pardon my vocarity) and go DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. Make this game you want to play. If it's good other people might even play it.. You might even find out that getting from the Idea to the finished product is a long and troubled journey. When you're finished you might have a new perspective on what it takes to build something like Gal Civ 2, or MoO2 or Civilization, and maybe a little bit about the "REAL WORLD".

Excuse me, I have a day job -- I engineer rocket engines. So don't lecture me on "doing stuff that's hard". When Stardock has a bad day, they get flamed on their forums -- when people in my industry have a bad day, you find chunks of the Space Shuttle landing in your back yard. You want to lecture someone on getting off their ass? I'm actually trying to develop "REAL WORLD" technology to explore space. What do YOU do?

I have done mod work on other games... various RTS and strategy games over the years. Note that a lot of the stuff I'm proposing has ALREADY been done in other games... just not 4X games. It CAN be done, because it HAS been done in Sim and Tycoon style games.
Reply #21 Top
I apologise if my post came off as a flame, it wasn't meant to be. In fact, I found some of your ideas for a game interesting. I was just curious as to why you spend so much energy basically spouting off a tirade of derision at the developers who I think did a pretty good job on this game. You can't tell me they didn't work hard on it. I just attempted to challenge you to take postive action I apologise for the comment about getting "off your ass". Sometimes all off us needs a kick in the pants. This wasn't the place for it, and again I apologise.

instead, you want to debate with me the importance of your job, well what you say on the internet is really meaningless, and I'm not going to get into a pissing contest with you about things we can't prove anyhow. From the tone of your posts you don't strike me as mature or professional so if what you say is true, I fear for the future of our space program.

This is all I have to say on this subject or to you. I am sorry you didn't enjoy the game. I offer one last piece of advice, it's been my experience that if you want something badly and are unwilling to do any of the work to get it, you will find yourself gravely disappointed in life, thats a lesson I learned from the REAL WORLD.
Reply #22 Top
So, if you don't like the way things are done in GalCiv then, quite simply, don't play it. Ranting like some armchair dev know it all doesn't do anything except bring on the abuse by those who like the system. Create your own game or go play something you DO like.
Reply #23 Top
You can't tell me they didn't work hard on it.

I apologize if I implied they hadn't worked hard on it or didn't want to make the best game possible. My initial post was frustration over how developers could work so hard on something and yet get a fundamental part of the game so completely wrong (in my view). It was also because it was the sequel... I was just amazed that they could get it "completely wrong" twice in a row... again, just my opinion.

I'm not going to get into a pissing contest with you about things we can't prove anyhow.

As it happens, there was already a clue hidden in my forum name... a bit of an inside joke regarding one of my interests:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nerva
And my profession:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NERVA

From the tone of your posts you don't strike me as mature or professional so if what you say is true, I fear for the future of our space program.

Engineers are not known for their social skills. That said, I'm at my worst when I'm criticized on internet forums. I apologize.

I offer one last piece of advice, it's been my experience that if you want something badly and are unwilling to do any of the work to get it, you will find yourself gravely disappointed in life, thats a lesson I learned from the REAL WORLD.

That is very good advice and something I intend to give more thought to today. It actually has a lot of value to me at this particular point in time.

I just attempted to challenge you to take postive action

Well, there are different kinds of "positive action"... I apologize for simply "venting" in my initial post. However, I don't think there's anything wrong with offering suggestions for how the game could be improved -- it also bugs me when people blindly defend a product as-is or simply tell the person "if you don't like it don't play the game". It also bugs me when people attack people they don't even know (developers) as not caring about their work or simply out to make a buck. There is a place for constructive criticism (which I admit my first post was not). We can't all take direct action in every area that we see needs improvement.

There are many things I like about the game. I particularly like the silly technology explanations -- there's a time for being serious and realistic and a time for just screwing around... and I like the Douglas Adams approach to the game.
Reply #24 Top
Nerva, you are a troll. Your OP was incendiary and insulting, and you say "Time to go play some X-Com.", but you're responding to this thread on the hour. That's why everyone jumped on you.

Now, that doesn't mean that your arguments don't have merit. I totally agree. I think Civ IV and GalCiv II are both very crude. And yes, we should REQUEST a better system, and work with devs to define what that is. We can do that without insulting the work of this great company. They've done a great job with this game.

It's also unfair for people to categorize a more sophisticated system as a "spreadsheet". It isn't about micromanagement. It's about a realistic system.

IMHO, the problem with Civ and GalCiv is that they are based on "fiat". The people produce what the government tells them to produce. Civ lets you move populations from tile to tile every turn. In real life, that would be like the Trail of Tears every year: cops coming to your door to move you from the plains to the hills. And why can't a farming center ship food to coastal cities? Or mining centers send raw materials to manufacturing sites? That's how it works in real life. Cities and planets can't REALLY specialize unless you can move goods from place to place. Specialists in a university town need food from a farming town. Same with university planets and farming planets.

What I want to see is a free-market system. The state defines laws, sets fiscal and monetary policy. That sets up a system of rewards and risks for individuals, and they all work for their own self-interest. The result of their economic interaction is your economic system. Like ants, you define rules, and give individual ants simple AI to make decisions and take actions. The resulting structure of the ant colony is far more complex and surprising than the simple AI you give the individuals.

This does not mean transforming the game into a spreadsheet. It means an intelligent economy that can run itself. It's the opposite of micromanagement. You set priorities, funding levels, and pass laws, and the system figures it all out.

There's actually a branch of computer and social science that deals with this. They're called complex systems. The simple actions of many individuals result in surprisingly complex societies. This is a relatively new field. And PhDs are wrestling with it. What makes you think that Stardock, at this point in time, would be able to incorporate this stuff into a GAME?

There is something constructive you can do. I've been working on modding Civ4 to actually implement these ideas. I have a dozen or so Python classes that implement, to a simple degree, economics, culture, religion, education, military, and trade of individual Civ4 citizens. It's HARD work, since the research isn't quite there yet. And since the field is new, there's been no algorithmic research into functions that can give accurate optimizations of these things, so they're computationally intensive. But I'm trying.

When my work gets further along, I'll submit it to the Civ4 community for refinement. I think it would take the game to the next level, if it works.
Reply #25 Top
I'm more disappointed by not having colonies auto-build their facilities based on their needs. Micromanaging buildings = ugh.