Is the United Planets in GalCivII????

Thanks!
39,115 views 37 replies
Reply #1 Top
Yes.
Reply #2 Top
Of course. The UP is one of the coolest things from it IMHO.
Reply #3 Top
It is in and better than the previous version.
Reply #4 Top
Does it actually intervene in wars and such?
Reply #5 Top
bah galactic council seams like the real UN in GalCiv1 it was nearly a joke and good thinks you perhaps get was at the end da very expencive ...always...council-prison..galactic zoo ...cheer technical knowlage with weeker races oh please with race will do that???
Reply #6 Top
Well, as a potential future galactical dictator, I like my interstellar organisations weak...
Reply #7 Top
"bah galactic council seams like the real UN in GalCiv1 it was nearly a joke"

If by joke you mean maintaining over a dozen peacekeeping/monitoring missions throughout the world, in addition to running programs from nuclear arms inspection to monitoring elections in nacscent democracies, then yes... the UN is a joke.

I'd say for an organization whose annual peacekeeping budget is less than the NYC police department's, they do okay.

I didn't see much detail on the United Planets in the draft manual. Is there a thread or doc with more info?
Reply #8 Top
The flaw in the UN is in it's design: the US has the power to completely countermand the efforts of the UN if it wants, as evidenced by going to war in Iraq (the UN did everything they cound to stop it, and barely even delayed the invasion). I think that's what Lord Doom meant.
Reply #9 Top
No. The UN is a joke.

It's not just the US that has the power to completely countermand things. China and Russia can as well. There are a few other countries that can as well.

The UN is a joke for most things. Take the Nuclear Inspections. Complete joke. It always takes a defector from a project for anyone to find out about it.

The only thing the UN is good at is skimming money off of all the nations of the world and getting their wicks wet via wetters that are usually forced and under the age of consent.

The world would be a far better place without the UN. For every 1 good thing they manage to do, they do 10 bad things. That's according to the UN's own records.
Reply #10 Top
Just one question for you Star Pilot though, how is a smouldering nuclear wasteland better than what we have today, last time I checked a general debate in the UN main chamber resulted in the opinion of the whole world turning against the USSR and thus increased support for eh US "quarantine" of Cuba, which saved the world from a nuclear exchange between those two former powers (see Cuban Missile Crisis). You are right in saying that the UN has screwed up toooo many times, but its pulled it weight when it mattered. And then there’s all the humanitarian work it does...
Reply #11 Top
To get back on topic, if you've played GC1, the UP is basically the same deal. Ive not noticed any big difference between the two in terms of gameplay.
Reply #12 Top
Overflight prevented Nuclear War. Status Quo is what prevented Nuclear War. A couple of timely assassinations of Russian Generals and Strategists by other Russian Generals and Strategists is what prevented Nuclear War. The UN had nothing to do with it. Indeed, the UN has had a hand in trying to accelerate the spread and usage of nuclear weapons because it allows countries to shay "The UN will handle it" and "The UN would never allow it" when in fact the UN has been bought off or just been guilty of thinking that all humans are as big morons as they are.

The UN is a waste of space and resources. It always has been, and it always will be. The only thing it has significantly contributed to the world is to allow vicious dictatorships to better prop themselves up and delay the natural course of their local people in progressing to a different government, or at least, governors.

Nothing the UN has done couldn't be done better by smaller, purposeful organizations. But the UN continues to work towards the complete monitoring and control of all people on the planet.
Reply #13 Top
Ähm...so far the political disskussion in the Stardock-Forum-Council!

FACT the idear of the UNO is not bad...but this is the comunissim also not but the leader of the 150+ Nations are mostly not realy honorable ok they are only human ..when nations like the USA are so powerfull that they can make war against the voice of UN -Security-council...and..follow the UN only when it is in the national intresst of the USA like nuclear-controll commission...of course no one want a littel fanatic gouverment see with nuclear weapons..but a world-organisation can't funktion when some big members do what they wan't...finaly understandeble the most members of UN are very poor and the some rich one don't want realy that the poor stats can dictate them something.

Correctly not the UN beware us before nuclear dissater this was the russian by them self that the take Kennedy for hard and taff that he will realy nuke them away when they don't take away the missels from cuba

Some parts of the UN or thrue this organisation ennablet are good things WHO, WWF, UNICEF, UNESCO...but UN its a joke till they make real politic and every country follow what is decleart ...also europe will be function when we stay closer together and forget a bit our own nationality
Reply #14 Top
You people should have been in the seminar I had on the United Nations and International Politics this semester. That would've been fun...
Reply #15 Top
For our purposes in GalCiv2 the UP plays a scaled down role, however, with the new AI I have to wonder if all the little bugs have been fixed such as the tendancy of a race to vote against itself for the levy of fines, or the giving away of Wisp as a new planet after it has been colonized for the duration of the game by the Altarian.

With Frogboy looking hard at the AI will the computer characters actually start using and buying influence votes to "sway" the vote of the counsel for example...

I have heard that now with advanced espionage you will be able to see what the UP is going to vote on. If the computer is actually using espionage (which I believe they are now) will the buying of votes actually play a part and if it does I will gladly begin spending more space bucks earlier to make sure I am getting a piece of that UP pie!

W/R
Suralle Straykat
Kat Lord @ Large

ps: Please drop the political rhetoric folks, for those that do have the necessary security clearance to know what happened, "they" know "they" cannot talk about it, the rest of the folks that do talk about it are working on conjecture and rumor which are both based on news reports and speculation by folks without the need to know.
Reply #16 Top
The UN isn't simply about peacekeeping. It's humanitarian efforts are very valuable. In countries not torn by war, WHO, UNICEF, and UNESCO have done much to do the real grunt work in establishing local governments that work and instilling progressive democratic ideas. Democracy is not about the price of sausage; it's about people taking responsibility for their own government, about people not shrugging their shoulders when faced with corruption and human rights violations. Building a small business class and bringing women into community decision making is the kind of work that peace is built on. It's unglamorous, boring, and tedious, but it needs to get done. No NGO or national government (not even the Peace Corps) has been more effective at this work, simply because the UN, as a true international organization, automatically gets a level of respect and access (in law abiding, peaceful countries).

Besides, underfunding the UN will ensure that it continues to remain a joke. It's like taking funding away from a failing public school... You expect things to get better?

Of course it takes a defector for the world to find out about secret weapons programs. Or do you want an expanded Interpol with unlimited espionage capabilities? And without the UN, who would defectors turn to? Or do you assume that defectors automatically go to Western, predominantly Christian, democracies? If I were a devout, peaceful Iranian nuclear scientist, and I wanted to blow the whistle, where would I go? I don't automatically flip to a Christian country.
Reply #17 Top
i sitll think it would be cool to be elected and be able to choose some of the proposals and try and get people kickd out of the UP
Reply #18 Top
STOP THE GATHERING OF NUTS!

(mutter) ----> WHACK (performs field calibration of the universal translator)

hehehe whoops...

er ah, I got an idea.

We all know that random events happen from the UP council, this race pays this, these folks have to pay for colonies or starbases....

What about them other events though... galatic prison, influence center... oooo 'nother idea!

1) Next screen from ?winning? a UP event such as galactic prison... is a list of yer planets... you pick which one needs the boost, after all its your empire the council mearly informs you that you get awarded the deal.

2) 'nother idea - similar to giving the planet away -
a. UP has recently uncovered some precursor technology has developed a "genesis torpedo" type device, who should get to try it out? (vote done, you win if UP) bring up next screen. You select an uninhabited planet in your sphere of influence and torpedo away...
b. Random event - Your labrats on "Planet X" have uncovered a precursor device that they theorize can change the enviornment, although they warn you that due to limits in current computer technology we have no way of knowing exactly what the biological onboard computer is exactly set to change.
Good - +/- 20% to planet PQ, but all inhabitants are kept safe (insert 500BC or high cost here in $$)
Neutral - +/- 5% to planet PQ, equivalent amount of colonists at risk (no additional cost)
Evil - +/- 20% to planet PQ, just flip the switch Spock! (sacrifice 50% population, no matter good or bad)

W/R
Suralle Straykat
Kat Lord @ Large
Reply #19 Top
Citizen Suralle, fear not. The AI no longer votes to levy itself. Heck, it doesn't vote to put a levy on its new enemies. It's worst enemy, that it might vote a levy against.
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re: UN

The UN is a joke, but not because of underfunding. It's a joke because the vast majority of the entities involved in it are playing a Zero Sum Game. They don't believe in cooperating for the betterment of all; they only believe in cooperating for their own immediate betterment. It doesn't matter if those entities are from governments of democracies, theocracies, communists, absolute monarchies, or even just the biggest bully in their little neighborhood. People whine that the US stops stuff, but if you look at the workings of the UN, most things aren't stopped by the members of the Nuclear Club (US, China, Russia, etc). Most things are stopped by the majority of the little dictatorships that don't want their people having unlimited access to the internet, for instance. Why? Because they cannot see a gain for themselves.

When people whine that the US is the main problem of the UN, they demonstrate a complete lack of knowledge on the subject. The US does cause problems in the UN, but not as many as other players, big or small. For instance, the US is causing problems with steel, timber, and chicken at the moment. It is also refuseing to hand over the internet to complete UN control. Why does the UN want absolute control of the Internet? So that the UN can have absolute control over every bit of traffic, apply a tax on every bit that traverses it, and allow all member countries to have absolute control (via routing) of every bit of data that passes through their own countries. This is but one of several measures the UN has been lobbying hard for concerning the Internet. It has been, since 1974, when it became apparant to the members that computer networks offered a conduit of increased information transmition. Go check out the number of times the UN has moved to put a tax on data, and how it would validate the amount of data exchanged in the world, starting in 1974, if you don't believe me.

BTW, it is possible to know wherever plutonium is made, and how much. There are several ways to do so. So there is no reason "we" (the community of all nations) should ever be surprised by a country developing nuclear weaponry. So why haven't we implemented any of these means to do so? Zero Sum Game, baby. No one wants to show their complete hand to the rest of the world. To implement that sort of system, would also give away how much weaponry any country actually has, and where most of their stockpiles and weaponry precisely located. So, in the self-interest of each nuclear armed nations, we are left "guessing" how much longer it will take a determined country to become a member of the Nuclear Club. Rather then just zeroing in, warning them, and then taking all actions necessary to preserve the future survival of our own species, as well as most of the planet.

There is not one activity the UN performs that couldn't be done better by a less beauracratic organization; there isn't one activity the UN does that a smaller group couldn't do better. Everything we know about humans, politics, economy, government, decision making, intelligence --- you name it --- everything we know tells us that the UN is the worst answer. Consider... the UN is putting together yet another virus/worm/spyware watch board. Why? Because it's previous ones take too long to get around to coordinating their data exchage that by the time they have completed agreeing that virus x is a problem, computers have changed their OS (and hence, virus X is no longer a problem).

Underfunding is not an issue. More money is not the answer. The issue is the inherent wastage of money in non-answerable beauracries. Make them answerable, and they tend to become more efficent. When they become more efficent, you get results.

The UN will always be a joke, so long as there are national governments. It is the nature of ruling parties to always choose their own self-interest over others. It is truly nature in action (competition to maintain and improve one's own lot regardless of the cost to anything else). Nature itself dictates that the UN will stay a joke, a place for selfish individuals to fatten on the offered money of its members rather then use it to better fund the UNs own programs or improve its own infrastructure to make it more efficent; only once the national governments of the world see that their own lots would be improved and that their own power would be magnified will they truly join a "world" government. So there is no hope for the UN to ever become anything else, not without a very strong outside source.

But hey. If you want to go join the UN and try to make it better, go for it. Or if you want to give it more money, send them all your spare bits of change. But if you want to improve your nation's lot, you should look to your neighbors. Look past the Zero Sum Game and see where, by giving up on obtaining your individual maximum possible on something and cooperating, both of you can create a synergy that creates more for the both of you then either would end up being able to achieve alone. That's the power of community. It is that which the UN never seems to do, or when it manages to finally do (despite the best attempts of its own labertine buearacries), only does it at the most minimum levels.

GalCiv's UP, by comparison, manages to do so much more and so much better. But then, there is only a small group of interest competiting in it.
Reply #20 Top
Time for a standing ovation for Star Pilot!

I'd only add two things

1. The UN is evil

2. The UN is not a Democracy, read some of the documents that they are based on - things like no right to a pubic trial (they don't like you, you die and no one need know) bother me.
Reply #21 Top
Star Pilot, how is what you described any different than any federal or confederate system? When the US was young, the culture less homogenous, and transportation and communication networks less solid, individual states bickered against each other, using the federal government to enrich themselves and tear each other down. It wasn't until the ultimate rebellion against federal unity, the Civil War, was settled, that states' rights were curtailed, federal power was firmly established, and America became a country.

Of course countries will advocate their own interests. How is that any different than provinces, states, counties, towns, and villages lobbying for their own interests and pork at any level of government?

The essential question is one of identity. Am I a South Carolinan, or am I an American? Am I citizen of France, or am I a citizen of the United Earth Government? If I think of myself as a citizen of Earth, rather than of a subdivision of it, then I will guide my government to do things that benefit all of Earth.

I think we agree on this point, yet we come to radically different conclusions.

To me, giving up is not the answer. Abandoning the UN doesn't get us closer to a United Earth. It gets us farther away. Letting our "wayward sisters to the South" leave the Union wouldn't get us closer to a united America. It gets us farther away. The only solution is to stick with the UN until our planet congeals.

And it will congeal. It's a simple matter of media. The more we swap ideas, the more homogenous we become. Network TV and the interstate highway system are what really helped America forge a national identity. Likewise, the exchange of information on the Internet, and the proliferation of air travel, no matter how much tin pot dictators try to control it, will slowly but surely forge a world identity. Malcontents in China will find a way to get real news. Iranians with satellite dishes will get porn. Information will flow.

There's a subtle shift in your argument, and the logic doesn't follow. Your first 3 paragraphs speak about the self interest of nations. Then in the next 2 paragraphs you speak about efficiency, bureaucracy, and accountability. Then you return to self interest. What does self interest have to do with bureaucracy? The UN is accountable; it answers to its member nations' governments. Which means that the UN, as it exists today, is exactly what the selfish national governments of the world want it to be. I argue that it has been designed with perfect efficiency to serve the petty self interests of member nations.

This does not mean that the UN, by its very nature, cannot be efficiently serving humankind. It isn't because its a large bureaucracy. It's because its constituents, member nations, don't want it to. Member nations' selfishness does not imply that NGOs or other privatized organizations would do a better job. Lack of world community is not an argument against big government or for privatization.
Reply #22 Top
I just have to ask, do we want a single world government?

Seems like people fall into one of two categories, and since this is a sci-fi game forum, lets use popular series and name camp one Star Trek and camp two Star Wars.

The Star Trek camp thinks we should have a single government, but they also believe in the galactic group hug and that pink skins can really get along with blue skins. While the Star Wars camp thinks this is a bad idea as there is always the dark side and if you concentrate that much power in one government, here comes Lord Vader a legion of storm troopers and the Imperial March blasting.

Personally I don't see the Star Trek Federation happening, I mean we are having riots, people sending death threats and bomb threats over a few Danish cartoons and you want everyone to all hold hands and get along?? Frankly I see the UN as a step toward the abyss rather than the right direction.
Reply #23 Top
amaevis, I believe I understand your point. And that you understand mine.

However, you've got some of your American history incorrect.

The original Confederation of American failed because participation of the individual members states voluntarily participated to their own degree at the Federal level. Funding, enforcment, laws, trade, etc. This is the situation we have with the current UN.

Where you go wrong: It was the creation of the United States of America that corrected that. This new government had a federal government that had actual powers. The division was clear between States and Federal powers.

The national identiy was forged by the Telegraph (linking the west coast with the east coast in communications so that the west coast went from being weeks to months out of touch to being just a few seconds behind the events of the East, and visa versa), and the Transcontinental Railroad (linking the west coast with the east coast in travel, so that people and goods could travel in just a few days between the two, rather then the several months it used to take).

The American Civil War was about what was supreme, the rights of the People, or the Might of the Federation. The People lost that one. For those of you educated in the American public school system, this is what Licoln's own statements and writings have said--- that it was about subjagating the will of the People to the Power of the Federal forever. That was why he couldn't let the Confederate States have their way. He stated that fighting the Civil War was the death of the true country of the United States of America, as the balance of power between the People and the Government was going to be broken forever; one invariably had to become a slave to the other. And for the sake of the remaining *rulers* (politicians and rich Americans invested in the current American power structure), it had best be the Union that won. Otherwise, all the other states would eventually just be able to opt out, and the Federal rulers would be no more. Indeed, he refers back to his decision to firmly throw destroy the founding principles of America and that the new Union was nothing more then dictators maintaining their power when he talks about forcing Maryland to stay in the Union.

I don't believe in throwing away valuable, non-renewable resources. The UN is just that. The nations of Africa do not take their various businesses and disputes to the UN. Why? Because it's quicker, and better for them, to take it to their own local Federation. Just as the US, Canada, and Mexico settle their own disputes. Or for that matter, just as France, Britian, and Germany take their issues to the EU. Now, these larger blocks can and do settle their own matters just fine between them, with no UN.

In governmental issues, you always want to go to the smallest layer of beauracacy as necessary. The UN is not a natural formation of the smaller international blocks. It is instead and overblown version of the League of Nations. It's LoN 2, and just like most software sequels, it is more bloated and more costly without adding many new features.

I think that if we last long enough as a civilized species, Earth will form a World Federation. But one where the rulings of the top are binding, and one in which the soldiers of the WF is dispatched to any place a smaller member nation gets uppity. It seems to be the logical progress of continued trade and advances in communication and travel. The truth is that cooperation creates a better life for us then not cooperating. And we will continue to increase our cooperation until just past the point it continues to benefit us. Barring any apocolyptic events, anyways.

The UN isn't a logical growth. It isn't interested in advancing the state of humanity. It serves as a mouthpiece for nations to bloviate and threaten each other, and clearing house to hold a few of their "ruling class" relatives. This means that it cannot serves the needs of humanity effeciently. It isn't the most efficent bureaucracy it can be. It is exactly the opposite because it's purpose is not to serve humanity. WHO, for instance, is a bigger detriment to world health then it is an advantage. Indeed, it is trivially easy to find where the UN has harmed the world. It is incredibly difficult to find cases where it has helped. It's easier to find examples where America or France or the UK has helped the world then it is to find where the UN has helped. Now, if something as small as France or the UK can do more good then the UN, why is that?

The UN doing stuff does not lend an instant air of acceptability to anything. It might sound reasonable on the idiot box, but most people I know that spend their life working in all manner of places around the world inform me that the UN is generally considered a joke, or worse, on the side of the "bad guys". There are some areas where the UN is seen as a good thing, but from what I hear, there are few and far between.

You shouldn't presume that the exchange of media, communications, tv shows, etc will create a homogenious society. If that was going to happen, there wouldn't be such a thing as "black culture" in the US. Or "West Coast". Or "Feminist". Or "Trekkers". Or "Furries". Or "Goths". Look at any school, and you will find that we humans naturally group and develop culture. We always differentiate ourselves from others. It's how we are. But we will cooperate to make gains. Keep in mind that the more channels of communication people have, the more groups we fracture into, because we are actually sharing less experiences, and therefore have less common points. In the US during the 50s and 60s, TV networks gave us all a common experience. But now, when you have 500 or more channels to choose from on your cable or dish, as well as all the recorded media (DVDs, Direct Streaming, etc), we are becoming more and more fractured. Things like the internet are just speeding that up, not bringing us together to form one big world culture.

Profiteering does give us the tool for a united world. But it isn't the tool to maxlmize protecting the non-renewable aspects of our planet. Big governments can do that, but they don't care if you have toilet paper that is incredibly soft and scented pine fresh, or that you have a small roll of sandpaper. Governments just care that you don't riot in such force that you overwhelm their guards, storm their homes and offices, and execute them for the excesses they have indulged in while your children have suffered and died needlessly. This is, again, the nature of the Zero Sum Game.

If you see the UN as man's hope for the future, then you are more optimisitic than I. I forsee the UN getting abandoned in favor of a future world trading federation composed of regional blocks (the EU, Americas, Pacifica, Africa, Trans-Arabia, and the underwater trading blocks making up the deep water communities in the Atlantic, Pacific, Indian, and Artic Oceans). It will, however, get in trouble for forcing the orbital communities to bow down and kiss its feet. Ultimately, I forsee the World Federation itself being forgotten by the Stellar Community that emerges. Eventually, the Earth is going to be a deep gravity well ghetto. What it becomes after that, I don't know. It depends on how cheap it is to go between orbit and dirtside, and if there is anything down here worth trading for and taking orbital. But don't despair--- the vast majority of humanity will be living the good life, scattered throughout the solar system. And beyond, given enough time.
Reply #24 Top
I believe that I understand your point, and that you understand mine. I'm glad we can have an intelligent and civil discussion about this.

I disagree about your interpretation of American history. The separation of power between levels of government, and the separation of power between branches, has always been and continues to be a point of contention. The division still remains unclear, and the founding of the USA didn't make it truly clear, even though it did explicitly grant the Feds much more power than in the original Confederacy. I contend that thus far, the Civil War was the most important event in the battle between State and Federal.

The Telegraph and Transcontinental Railroad were big, but they didn't do much for identity. To have a major social impact, transportation can't merely be available (as the Railroad was), it has to be easily accessible and its use must be necessary in the course of daily life. The Railroad only really penetrated major urban centers (and created a few urban centers in the Midwest), but the Highway integrates remote rural areas as well. Long distance truck drivers bring more goods and ideas to more people than the Railroad ever did.

Likewise, the Telegraph enabled instantaneous one-on-one communication, but one-on-one doesn't consolidate identity. Network TV really integrated the American identity, since a small number of liberal elite talking heads on 3 major networks effectively told America what to think. The nation's perception of war was transformed during the Vietnam conflict by Walter Cronkite. The Civil Rights movement was made possible by sympathetic news coverage. This integrated liberal voice moved the country significantly to the left.

I agree with your interpretation of the Internet and cable completely. In the US, the rise of the Internet and cable television has led to a fracturing of our identity, since its possible for you to pick the news you get (like Fox News and Air America). Evangelical Christians wouldn't have been able to organize without first establishing a media network that consolidated conservatives while excluding others. That required cable.

However, I contend that the Internet still brings world identity together. Goths and Furries aren't real expressions of culture; identity is much deeper than the clothes you wear and the food you eat. What really defines us are our deepest moral codes (torture is wrong; rape is abhorrent and cannot be used as a weapon of war; the rights of the individual trump the State). On these broad points, the Internet effectively allows the West to push these ideals into more autocratic nations, because the Internet cannot easily be contained. A dictator cannot find every server. Ideas will get in. This is a simple function of the low level of capital required to start a site. In the end, we will become much more homogenous, even if Ebonics is taught in certain school systems.

As for Lincoln, I'd like to see some quotes.

I agree with the principle of keeping power to the lowest level possible, but no lower. Regional trade blocs have a much broader impact on day-to-day affairs than the UN. However, I also subscribe to the principle that at the highest level, there must be some body that exists to integrate everyone, even if that body has no real power. Keeping trade disputes to the EU doesn't mean that the UN shouldn't exist; there must still be a body, no matter how token, at the highest level.

As we move forward, regional blocs will become more powerful, and will likely be the next frontier of government. But the UN still has a role. Indeed, as regional blocs become more powerful, and regional blocs start negotiating with each other (rather than nations doing so), the world government will have a bigger, more concrete role in the day-to-day.

I think we both see that a world government will eventually get formed, whether we like it or not. But I believe that the UN will grow into that role.

In the present day, the UN is still very effective at humanitarian aid given the level of funding it has available. Most foreign and humanitarian aid workers who criticize the UN do so because the UN doesn't do enough. The real limitation is funding.

I am much less optimistic about the future of humanity than you. At some point, we'll get cybernetic and genetic enhancements. I assume that these will be capital intensive. If there is a capital intense way for intelligence and other abilities to be enhanced, you can be sure that the rich will use them and the poor will be left in the dust. All current arguments for diversity and arguments against classism are really about the search for talent. A society must not discount any potential sources of talent, regardless of where they come from. That's why America is strong and other countries weak; our free-flowing talent search means we waste a lot less innate talent than other countries, and our diversity ensures that this talent can interact to produce unanticipated and revolutionary results. If talent itself can be scientifically enhanced, then those arguments fall away. Why bother setting up school programs to look for genius in underprivileged neighborhoods when there's political pressure to take someone's rich son and give them an implant? This will drastically reduce class mobility.
Reply #25 Top
While I agree with many of the criticisms put forward against the United Nations, I don't agree with the - more or less subtle - claim that the world would be better off without this institution. I think the well-known Churchill quote about democracies ("It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried.") can be applied in a similar way to the UN. World history of the last 60 years would have been different without the UN, but I doubt it would have been better (well, whatever "better" exactly means in this case).