Strength and Tactical Movement

how I learned to love the bomb (I mean strength)

By on February 16, 2012 8:19:56 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Tasunke

Join Date 10/2009
+45

I hear all these things about how Strength is the best stat, and that it needs to be nerfed. But does it really?

I think what needs to be nerfed is a Melee unit able to move 10 tiles on the first round of combat and kill a caster EVEN IF ITS BEHIND A DEFENSIVE LINE.

Near turn 200, my sovereign can not only move twice at the beginning of the battle, but also move 10 tiles each time. (granted he IS on a horse)

Still, the ability to move 'around' the first line of units, on the first round of combat no less, makes ranged combat a non-issue.

Regardless of how good (or bad) ranged weapons are, if the distance can be closed before the battle begins, it has no use whatsoever.

The answer, however, is NOT to nerf strength, or necessarily to boost ranged ... but to just SLOW UNITS DOWN.

 

Basic Units:

regular units-> 1 base movement.

Zone of Control-> more powerful (cannot leave ZoC period. until ZoC unit is dead)

 

Ways to Increase movement

(Various Equipment) -> +1 move, non-stacking

(Mount) -> +2 move, does NOT stack with equipment bonuses. Also, mounted units do NOT HAVE Zones of Control.

(Mounted Equipment) -> magical horseshoes etc. Stacks with mounted move bonus (+1). Only affects units with mounts. (or affects mount itself)

 

Traits/Spells/Weapon effects-> DONT affect movement. Only affect Initiative, Dex, Dodge, etc

 

End Result

-> Melee/Ranged/Casters 2 movement max (1 base)

-> Mounted units 4 movement max (3 base) -> 4 max 'passive' movement. increased with the activated 'charge' ability discussed below

 

Mounted Units

-> Can use the 'charge' ability (+1 move, +4 strength, -2 dex (for that round/attack) ... can use once every 4 rounds)

-> Do NOT have zones of control

-> Can exit zones of control (only unit-type able to do so), yet still stops moving when entering a new ZoC. Enemy gets an 'attack of opportunity' when a cavalry unit exits a ZoC (but some mounted units have dodge bonuses against Attacks of Opportunity)

 

Path of the Cavalier-> +5 strength during a Charge, +3 dodge

Sally Forth-> +1 move during a charge (while mounted)

Unstoppable Force-> charge knocks an opponent down, and lowers their initiative by 4 (for either rest of the battle or next 3 rounds)

Bruiser -> Ignores defense during a charge

Mobile Cunning -> +10 dodge vs attacks of Opportunity (or +4 dodge, +0.5 dodge per level vs Attacks of Opportunity)

Trail Blazer -> Ignores Zones of Control (but not their attacks of opportunity)

 

Path of the Nomad-> +5 Dexterity while Mounted

Horse Archer Mastery -> No penalty to short bows while mounted. Can use composite bows while mounted, but at a penalty (if there isn't a penalty, there should be. and no longbows on horses. Only short-bows and composite bows should be on horses, and at a penalty to start with)

*short bows should also probably have a range-limit

Point Blank shot -> requires either Horse Archer Mastery or Path of the Archer. ignores enemy defense at point blank range (for bows)

Hit and Run -> requires path of the Nomad. can move, attack, and move again IF there is movement left over.

 

Charge on melee (non mounted) units

'berserker trait' may charge into an enemy unit if near one. Will not do so if inside an enemy's Zone of Control. randomly activates, yet uses the 'mounted' charge ability while charging. Sally Forth does not affect it however, since the berserker trait only activates charge while dismounted.

'Athlete' trait -> may use the charge ability if Encumbrance is under 25% (under 10%?)

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February 16, 2012 10:14:12 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I still think Strategic movement should be base 2 (maybe capped at 3?), but that tactical movement should be base 1

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February 16, 2012 11:10:26 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Cut down on strategic mobility too much and the game slows to a crawl.

Agree that currently tactical mobility make ranged weapons pretty useless, and that there is room for a fix, but even that could be overdone, making tactical battles too slow also.

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February 16, 2012 11:28:42 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Cutting it down to 1 tactical movement is definitely going too far IMO. I think they need to nerf the ability to stack movement bonuses

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February 16, 2012 11:33:15 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I think more important than "tac move at 1, tac move at 2, etc" is to make ZoC more powerful. For non mounted units to be unable to leave ZoC. (or has some have said, need an agility check, and if fails, enemy gets an attack of opportunity and no movement is made)

In this way, a defensive line could be much more 'defensive' (regardless of what tactical speeds end up being)

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February 17, 2012 12:29:17 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Sarudak makes a good  point. There needs to  be a control on how  many movement bonuses can be made to stack. There may  need to be something along the lines of "bonus types" so if  there are multiple bonuses of the same  type, they don't stack. There should still be room to create faster units  with some effort - at the  cost however of their being  effective in other ways.

 

Tasunke is also right. There ought to be a zoc/opportunity attack mechanic. The  two ideas are not mutually exclusive and could combine quite nicely.

 

If we did establish a zoc for melee types, we could go  one step further and set  different threat ranges for certain creatures. Some might only threaten the square next to them. A few with long weapons or with long reach might threaten a 2 square  distance. That would go a long way to making the battles more "tactical. I know we may be borrowing from a certain RPG, but it should still be possible to  shift a single square on your  turn, but anything more than that risks a free  hit and movement being stopped.

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February 17, 2012 3:14:36 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Tasunke,
I think more important than "tac move at 1, tac move at 2, etc" is to make ZoC more powerful. For non mounted units to be unable to leave ZoC. (or has some have said, need an agility check, and if fails, enemy gets an attack of opportunity and no movement is made)

In this way, a defensive line could be much more 'defensive' (regardless of what tactical speeds end up being)

 

Yes yes YES! Everything that makes ZoC more of a tactical consideration is welcome. But no explicit stat checks pls. The idea that normally you can't leave ZoC is really nice. So once a unit is engaged, they have to battle it out. Only with a special trait they are allowed to leave ZoC means we can create real skirmishers which would enrich the game a lot. 

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February 17, 2012 3:29:37 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I agree, it would be better for a solid ZoC definition, rather than stat checks.

So mounted units can leave the ZoC ... possibly some skirmisher units as well?

Not sure how skirmisher units would be implemented, but I definitely think mounted should be able to leave ZoC normally (now ... while leaving the ZoC they have to get hit by an attack of opportunity regardless, not counting hero traits)

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February 17, 2012 4:38:28 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I'm not that hooked on the attack of opportunities. The rule is to gimmick-like when it is only applied on special units, which have in turn defense against it. IMO scratch it. 

It also lessens the value of being able to leave ZoC but isn't it that what would make mounted units (/Skirmishers) unique?

 

I only would like attack of opportunities if all units could leave ZoC, but suffer such an attack of opportunity. But only mounted units (/Skirmishers) could leave the ZoC with impunity. 

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February 17, 2012 8:17:28 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

hmm.

 

Makes sense. Personally I would prefer that only mounted units (and whatever skirmishers are, I guess) be able to leave from ZoC ... and if that is the case then no attacks of opportunity.

Yet if anyone can try to leave a ZoC, only mounted,etc don't suffer from attacks of opportunity

 

(I agree with you on the redundancy of the earlier model)

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February 17, 2012 9:08:18 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Like i suggested earlier. Make it so that any unit in a zone of control can move one square without giving up an attack of opportunity. This allows you to do things like interpose another unit in it's place if your order of initiative allows. Your wounded infantry pulls back, and a healthy unit slides into thes spot it had occupied, trying to keep the  monster in check so that it doesn't finish the job on the infantry man.

 

Some units though, can have an ability that allows them a chance of fully disengaging from an enemy  - and these can include your mounted units or skimisher units. Giving some units  NO chance at all to pull back limits options and tactics.

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February 17, 2012 9:27:06 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Being able to do everything limits tactics.

sometimes limiting options increases tactics (do I engage yet since I don't have a healing spell? maybe I should weaken the unit with ranged attacks first ...)

 

Maybe give that Troll ring to a mounted or skirmisher hero

 

(although yes, if it could be coded that a single tile 'retreat' is possible, that would fulfill the niche of interposing units without creating new exploits)

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