MarvinKosh's Space Weapons Fix Mod v5E

for Twilight of the Arnor

By on November 21, 2010 2:49:45 PM from GalCiv II Forums GalCiv II Forums External Link

MarvinKosh

Join Date 08/2005
+48

Some time ago the modding community started poking around in the TA tech trees to see why the AI was reluctant to develop certain techs.  We found that some weapons techs were categorised as PD, instead of Military, meaning that unless missile weapons were deployed, those techs would never be researched by the AI.  Obviously, an AI that can't fight back isn't much of a challenge.

The idea behind this mod was originally just to get the TA AI on the right track as far as weapons are concerned.  However as suggestions have been put forward by the community, more improvements have been made to the tech trees.  Some features have been driven by my own need to fix annoyances.

For example there is the AI's passion for spamming factories or labs onto every tile, crashing their early economy.  These basic improvements would get upgraded and then cost the AI even more in terms of miantenance and production cost, forcing the AI to run inefficiently with the production slider at far less than 100%.

All that's needed there is for the AI to be tweaked to skip building basic structures except on key planets where a boost is needed, and if it can be afforded.  Since nothing like that is forthcoming right now, the next best thing is to deprive human and AI alike of early structures that can cause economic meltdown, and in their place have Super Projects which allow for some single-planet focus.

N.B. Use the external link above or choose one of the versions below.  The successive versions are not patches, they contain  all the features of that version of the mod.  Extract the ZIP folder to your mods folder - if one doesn't already exist, create it.  If your mod select screen in-game is broken, see here to fix it.

Version History

v1: Re-categorises Space Weapons in the Weapons branch and as a Military category tech, for Altarians, Terrans, Drath, Korx, Thalan.

v2: Obsoletes Armor Plating, Chaff, and Superior Duranthium. Missile Defence Theory leads to Smart Chaff now.

The basic defence components yielded by early research into defences all start with a defence rating of 3.  However, they cost three times as much and are three times bigger than before.  Along the rest of the defence tech tree I have made the components take up more space and cost more but given them a proportionately better defence rating.  This includes any components that require Good alignment to unlock.

At various defence tech milestones however, you will get two components where you previously got one, the second component being a smaller (miniaturised) version of the first.  The list of these new components are:

  • Tritanium (5 Armour, requires Superior Tri-Strontium)
  • Duranvium (6 Armour, requires Kanvium III)
  • Zeronium (8 Armour, requires Zero-Point Armor)
  • Miniature Deflector (4 Shields, requires Barriers III)
  • Force Shields (7 Shields, requires Superior Force Fields)
  • Micro Barriers (9 Shields, requires Ultimate Invulnerability)
  • Micro ECM (6 Point Defence, requires PD Combo III)
  • Autodefence Turrets (9 Point Defence, requires Aereon Missile Defense)

 

What this new mod means is an end to all those AI ship designs (sometimes based around a small hull) which have a point or two of defence that doesn't do any good.  A ship will have a minimum of three points of defence if a defensive component is added.  By the time components that can give benefit to fighters are available, it's more likely for medium and large hulls to have been researched.

v3A: As Version 2, but with subtle changes to the Terran tech trees.  When playing against an AI using this tech trees, you may notice that they rotate their research projects more effectively.  Or not.  It's a beta, but I have seen it work really well so far.  In particular I have upped the value of a technology victory for the Yor tech tree, because they don't exactly have a lot of techs to help them do an Alliance or Culture victory.

As of version 3A the ultimate weapons are changed so that, as with the defences, they cost more, take up more space, and as compensation they do more damage.  You will still get a pretty mean weapon by doing the research, but you won't be able to fit so many on your ships.

Comparison of old and modded ultimate weapons
Weapon Old Damage New Damage Old Cost New Cost

Old Size

(small, large)

New Size

(small, large)

Doom Ray 22 48 150 330 11, 14 29, 39
Black Hole Gun 16 48 100 265 7, 10 33, 43
Nightmare Torpedo 25 50 160 280 12, 13 43, 48

 

v3B: Changes to the Terran, Yor, Altarian and Thalan tech trees. When playing against an AI using those tech trees, you may notice that they rotate their research projects more effectively.

Terran and Altarian tech trees have been altered a bit.  Instead of the single Planetary Improvements tech branching off from Artifical Gravity, you now have a group of four as follows -

  • Economic Improvements: opens up Xeno Economics
  • Research Improvements: opens up Xeno Research
  • Industrial Improvements: opens up Soil Enhacement, Extreme Colonisation, Xeno Farming, and Xeno Industrial Theory.
  • Starport Upgrades: opens up Interstellar Warfare, Interstellar Construction, Basic Logistics.

(Xeno Communications is unlocked by Xeno Research)

The technologies unlocked change in later versions of the mod.

The basic idea here was to make sure that the AI unlocks the technologies which would have been unlocked by researching Planetrary Improvements.

Improvement changes:
Research Labs, Traditional Factories and Market Centers have been chucked.  Instead you will get three new Super Projects.  The idea here was to not waste the opening of a game by building lots of rubbish improvements that will need to get upgraded anyway (wasting more time) and give both the player and AI some special improvements to use right away where they see fit.

Also in 3B are some new weapon sound effects.  Not strictly a fix as such, but it began to bug me in my last game that Quantum Drivers sounded really dorky.  Initially I changed them to use the newer sound that was shipped with Twilight of the Arnor, but it didn't quite jive with the animation so I ran some effects on it and eventually mixed in the crisp firing sound of mass drivers.  You may like it, or you may not.  You can always delete it.

Plasmas, Particle Beams and Lasers should also sound different.

 

v3C: Same as 3B but with fixes for Torian tech tree.  This adds a similar four-part structure for Planetary Improvements to try and stagger the development of economic improvements, research improvements, and everything else.  Schools are replaced by a Super Project, which helps to avoid an early-game choke.

Some Torian techs have been moved around and new ones have been added:

  • Advanced Space Liberation: Leads to Advanced Manufacturing, Planetary Bombardment, Planetary Defence, Advanced Logistics, More Space Weapons and Even More Space Weapons.
  • Advanced Manufacturing: Leads to Xeno Factory Construction, Fusion Power Plants.
  • Planetary Invasion : Leads to Advanced Troop Mod.  All the other invasion techs are part of the Advanced Space Liberation branch now.
  • Interstellar Construction: Is broken into parts I and II.

 

v4: Introduces Technology Progression research to the Terran tech tree.

These techs are fairly lengthy projects which serve to split the tech tree up a bit.  Because the TPs required for these have been borrowed from elsewhere in the tech tree, it doesn't slow you down by much, but it does encourage the AI (Terran AI at least) to develop its early technologies properly before moving on to the advanced stuff.

v4A: Adds Technology Progression research to Torian and Altarian tech trees.  I've limited the early choice of technologies in the Torian tech tree in an attempt to speed them through the early stuff faster.

Also in this version, defensive and offensive starbase modules require additional techs (from the weapon and defence trees) to unlock.  The Warp Disruption Field requires Warp Drive now, and the Yor get a module that reduces ship speed by 1, making it harder to travel through their territory.

The Torians and Altarians have new industrial improvements.  I've worked up some recoloured icons for them and the other improvements I've added.  Nothing fancy, just so you can tell them apart from other improvements.

v4B: Scales back the Torian mines to two-thirds what they pulled in 4A.  Adapted Factories lose a point of industry.  They still put a lot of colony ships out there, but the rush is not so overpowered now.

v4D: Fixes some of the mistakes I made when editing Starbase Modules.  Adds new starbase modules and makes the Stellar Fortification modules a bit less powerful (but they're still free, which is nice).  Version 4C was just an earlier version of this fix.

v4F: Scaled back the module requirements for the weapon and defence starbase modules. So for example, Laser Cannon now only requires Battlestations, before it required Battlestations II.  Also, fixed module requirements (they were broken, you could add modules without having pre-requisite modules).

v4G: Adds Technology Progression and Core Technologies to Yor tech tree.  Collectives are initially limited in number per planet, but gain small manufacturing bonuses.  Research Matrix gains a research bonus.  Terran tech tree is changed around slightly - New Propulsion Techniques isn't opened until Starport Upgrades.

v4H: Yor improvements toned back a bit, Collectives have an increased maintenance, but are still cheaper to build than they were.  Logistics, miniaturisation and manufacturing techs moved to later positions in the Yor tech tree.

Revised Yor/Iconian starting weaponry and research time.

Also, made Mass Drivers or Ion Cannons research a bit cheaper because it seemed totally overpriced in comparison to Yor or Iconian mass drivers research.  That basically affects anyone who is not Yor or Iconian.

Also adjusted cost of Technology Progression II in Terran tech tree to make it cheaper, redistributing TPs back to techs which come after it.

v4I: Dialed back the maintenance on Research Matrix a couple of bc, given that it's a one-per planet building.  More streamlining of the early tech tree for teh Yor and Terrans.  made Xeno Communications and Universal Translator part of Core Technologies II for Terrans.

Moved Xeno Communications and Universal Translator to later in the tech tree for the Yor because, basically, they do not need to be negotiating with other races in the early stages of the game.

Also, split up extreme planet terraforming technologies, the first stage can be researched fairly early on, the second comes a bit later with Advanced/Expert Colonisation.  Well, not for all races, because I haven't had nearly enough time to look at all of them, but the basic idea here was to stop the AI from burning lots of turns trying to make a few worlds 100% productive.

v4J: Overhauled the Drengin tech tree.  Obsoleted Basic Pits, Slaveling Imagination Lab, and Black Market, but added three Super Projects for the Drengin to build at the start.

v4K: Added a new firing sound for the Ion Cannon (Drengin).  Nerfed Torian Basic Mine and removed the Core Mine altogether (the Adapted Factory now upgrades the Basic Mine).  Limited the basic Particle Beam to just the Drengin, Korath, Arcean and Thalan racesm and added 5bc to its cost.  Reduced the cost of Ion Cannons.  Massively reduced the research time for Drengin to research Planetary Invasion and Ultimate Shock Troops.  However all but the first in the line of Planetary Defence techs is stripped from their tech tree.

v5: The last tier of weapons on the tech tree before Ultimate weapons take much longer to research.  This makes it worthwhile pursuing weapons research that takes less time.  Ultimate weapons research takes significantly longer than before.

The Nano Ripper (new name: Singularity Ripper) has been scaled up so that it is more of a capital ship weapon.

A number of starbase modules have been stripped along with their pre-requisite techs.  There are still defensive and ship assist modules available, but not as many.  Some production assist and culture modules have been removed.  All but one of the sensor modules have been removed.  Mining modules are basically untouched.

The reason for this is because as has been mentioned, the AI cannot read past a certain arbitrary limit.  Accordingly, the module list below has been shortened.

 
Module Properties Requires Tech Requires Module Cost (bc)
Laser Cannon +2 Beam Attack (Starbase) Laser V Battlestations 50
Kinectic Diffuser +2 Beam Attack (Starbase) Kinetic Streams III (Yor) BattleStations 50
Railgun Battery +2 MD Attack (Starbase) Mass Drivers III BattleStations 50
Pulveriser Cannon +2 MD Attack (Starbase) Scatter Blaster III (Yor) BattleStations 50
Stinger Missiles +2 Missile Attack (Starbase) Stinger IV BattleStations 50
Seeker Missiles +2 Missile Attack (Starbase) Seeker III (Yor) BattleStations 50
Nordstrom Shields +6 Beam Defence (Starbase) Shields Battlestations 200
Duranthium Plating +6 MD Defence (Starbase) Duranthium Battlestations 200
PD Batteries +6 Missile Defence (Starbase) Point Defence Battlestations 200
Plasma Diffuser +7 Beam Attack (Starbase) Plasma Weapons Battlestations 200
Graviton Mauler +7 MD Attack (Starbase) Graviton Driver Battlestations 200
Photonic Charges +7 Missile Attack (Starbase) Photonic Torpedo Battlestations 200
Nordstrom Force Fields +12 Beam Defence (Starbase) Force Fields Battlestations 400
Kanvium Plating +12 MD Defence (Starbase) Kanvium Battlestations 400
Drone Sentries +12 Missile Defence (Starbase) Droid Sentries Battlestations 400

v5A: Reworked the Terran and Drengin tech trees, just moving stuff around here and there.  Sensors techs are now spread out through the tech trees.  Techs which give access to a research facility cost 20% less.  Added Super Projects for Tech Progression research.  Added GC2Ships.xml which contains the nerfed Arnorian Ranger and Super Dominator Corvette designs.  Fixed up the Arceans to be more predatory with a +1 speed bonus instead of a speed nerf, but they take a -20 to Defence.  Various silliness fixes in Iconian tech tree.

The new Super Projects are:

  • Infinity Tech Labs: 18 tp, 14 bc maintenance.
  • Pear Shaped labs: 4 tp, +20 to Research ability, 8bc maintenance.
  • Nordstrom Technologies: +15 to Hitpoints ability, 2tp, no maintenance.

v5B:

  • Added Technology Progression and Core Technologies to Korx tech tree.
  • Added Technology Progression and Core Technologies to Arcean tech tree.
  • Restricted the number of money-sucking improvements the Thalans can build.
  • Added Universities to Core Technologies for Torians.
  • Reworked Korx tech tree slightly for visual consistency, altered pre-requisites for Cut-Throat Competition and Mercenaries.
  • Reworked Torian tech tree slightly for visual consistency.
  • Bugfixed Arcean tech tree and reworked for visual consistency.
  • Sparrow missile costs more but takes less space, though not as space-efficient as Stinger or Seeker I.
  • (Advanced) Navigation Centre takes less time to build, +5% HP bonus added.
  • Removed some extra files from the package that were in the wrong directory.

v5C:

  • Arcean tech tree fixes:
    • Moved Xeno Business (Xeno Anthropology) because early on in the tech tree it could be an unnecessary distraction for the AI.
    • Moved Interstellar Navigation in the tech tree to match the order it appears in its group.
    • Miniaturisation techs are split into three groupings.
    • Xeno Engineering is now Industry branch, Manufacturing category
  • Reduced the build cost of Invention Matrix and Discovery Sphere to be more in line with the cost of Research Academy.

  • Iconian tech tree now features Technology Strategy techs.  These are basically the same deal as the Technology Progression techs, but the Super Project list is different:

    Technology Strategy I - Centre for Intellect Studies, +20 to Research ability and +4tp

    Technology Strategy II - Precursor Weapons Lab, +20 to Weapons ability and +4tp

    Technology Strategy III - Galactic Technology Centre, +150% research on planet and +22tp

  • Four new Iconian improvements:

    Precursor Repository - upgrade for Precursor Library, +20% research on planet and +16tp (respectively, 10% and 4tp better)

    Precursor Matrix - upgrade for Precursor Archive, +40% economic bonus on planet +10% influence bonus and +12tp (respectively, 30% better on economic bonus and 2tp better on research)

    Enhanced Invention Matrix - 17tp, 3tp more than the standard Invention Matrix

    Enhanced Discovery Sphere - 21tp, 3tp more than the standard Discovery Sphere

  • Research Centre has a new look to set it apart from the Iconian refinery.
  • Unbuildable stock ships left over from DL and DA are now hidden so they don't show up in the tech tree.
  • Farms are now one per planet, and give a percentage boost of 25% or 50% rather than a straight +mt food increase.
  • An Improved Colony is now available for construction, technology needed varies depending on tech tree.
  • Thalan tech tree reworked using Technology Adaptation I through III as separators.  They now start with Planetary Adaptation instead of Interstellar Construction (you may need to press Clear on their race config screen first).
  • Devils' Forge upgrades to Slaveling Training Center.
  • Slaveling Training Center boosts production by 25% and adds 10 mp, and upgrades to Artificial Slave Pods.
  • Artificial Slave Pods boost production by 30% and adds 12 mp.

v5D:

  • Engines re-costed as follows:

    Speed 1

    • Hyperdrive, Hyperdrive Plus: 20
    • Ion drive, Stream Drive: 15

    Speed 2

    • Impulse Drive I - III: 30

    Speed 3

    • Warp Drive I - IV: 45

    Speed 4

    • Warp Drive V: 60
    • Hyperwarp I: 55
    • Hyperwarp II: 50

    Speed 5

    • Hyperwarp III: 75

    Speed 6

    • Stellar Folder: 120
 
  • New defences for Good-aligned civs: 
    • Duranthium Battle Armour, +9 Armour, cost 95
      Prerequisites for research: Duranthium III and Good alignment.
    • Psionic Defence, +16 PD, cost 140
      Prerequisites for research: PD Combo III and Good alignment.
  • Sensors and sensor array re-costed and re-sized, research cost for sensor array reduced by quite a bit
  • Re-costed the Yor Doom Ray research project.
  • Added a custom race as an opponent, with a close copy of the Yor tech tree and the Super Warrior ability.
  • Added the Omega Beam research project to the tech trees with Disruptors.  It replaces Doom Ray and makes it more worthwhile picking beam weapons in the end game with those races.
  • Omega Beam: Damage 66, Cost 405, uses the Disruptor II weapon model.  Custom sound effect based on the disruptor sound effects, but same Doom Ray animation.
  • Hopefully fixed Arceans getting stuck on Weather Control research.

v5E:

  • Trimmed Minor Tech Tree so that they have a headstart.
  • Minor XML tweaking in the main tech tree.

v5F (Unreleased):

  • Weather Control Zenith improves PQ by 4 instead of 3, has maintenance 2 and improves food production by 50%.
  • Farming techs removed from Arcean tech tree (otherwise they could have large unhappy populations!)
  • Arcean first-tier weapon tech costs reduced by 50%.
  • Arceans have earlier access to a low cost version of Advanced Logistics, but later logistics techs in their tech tree cost more.
  • Minor races did not have Hyperdrive defined as Propulsion category, fixed.
  • Made some consistency changes and fixes to Krynn tech tree.

 

Extra:

Patch to radically lower research output.  Extract to Mods\SWFix_ModV\Data and overwrite PlanetImprovements,xml if prompted.  You may want to backup that file first.

This will not only limit the output of research structures, it will also restrict how many of them you can place on one planet.  Some 1pp research boosters have been turned into Super Projects.

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November 23, 2010 1:31:11 AM from GalCiv II Forums GalCiv II Forums

Aha . . . I was recently wondering at the failure of some races to research space weapons and build warships.  Been puzzled watching the Korx attempt to wage wars with nothing but transports.

I'll have to look into fixing this.  Too bad I'm already way invested in a major game.

Thanks!

PS - My 5 second glance shows that the Minor Race tech tree has the same issue.  Not sure how much it matters to you, but for those of us with colonizing minors it would be nice to see them at least try to hold their own.

PPS - I wonder if this was intentionally done as a means to delay militarization by those races.  It works - oftentimes too well.

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November 23, 2010 1:44:21 AM from GalCiv II Forums GalCiv II Forums

The tech trees for Minor and Dread Lords get fixed too, I just forgot to mention it above.

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November 23, 2010 9:47:17 AM from GalCiv II Forums GalCiv II Forums

Updated the mod.  Defence Industries tech for Thalans (pre-requisite for Space Weapons) is now in the Weapons branch instead of Defences branch.  Don't know if that changes things for the AI, but certainly in the game I just played they didn't seem interested in progressing past this tech.

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November 23, 2010 1:47:17 PM from GalCiv II Forums GalCiv II Forums

Quoting MarvinKosh,
The tech trees for Minor and Dread Lords get fixed too, I just forgot to mention it above.

Great.  I noticed the Dread Lords later, so glad I didn't have to mention it.

I think I have to give another thanks for this one.  I went through and removed the PD category from the Altarians, Terrans, Drath, and Korx, then autoran a test game out to 2233.  I was shocked.  I was amazed.  I saw something I've never before seen in all my Twilight experience - the Drath Legion had dominated the galaxy!  I mean, I've seen them militarize and attempt to defend themselves, but I don't recall ever seeing them explode and dominate the galaxy.

Of the eight minors, one had a little nine planet empire with a decent military and looked about ready to maybe conquer a Yor world.  Of course, it was dog-pile on the Yor at the time, but still that's pretty impressive.  The others were lesser and some were in the process of being conquered themselves.

For the Thalans, you just changed the <Computing ID>/<Defenses ID> to <Weapons ID>?  Did you change the category for Space Weapons from Pure Research to Military, or just leave it?

Well done.

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November 23, 2010 3:56:26 PM from GalCiv II Forums GalCiv II Forums

Thalans have the Defence Industries prerequisite, which I just changed to Military/Weapons.  I already changed their Space Weapons tech to Military/Weapons.

In the game I'm running at the moment, a custom race with the Terran tech tree has the biggest military by far and there's no indication that anybody will be able to stop them.  Of course, I have a plan...

The mod has definitely increased interstellar warfare, it'll be a lot more satisfying to win by conquest now I think.  Assuming I can win against these bloodthirsty AIs.

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November 23, 2010 5:16:54 PM from GalCiv II Forums GalCiv II Forums

Quoting MarvinKosh,
The mod has definitely increased interstellar warfare, it'll be a lot more satisfying to win by conquest now I think.  Assuming I can win against these bloodthirsty AIs.

This. 

I ran another test and the wars started breaking out early to mid 2228, which is pretty unusual in my games.  Even the minors were declaring war before too long.  I would now wager a small sum that the PD tag was stuck in there to keep the peaceful races more-or-less peaceful until the wars started breaking out.

I wonder if a good middle ground might be to designate it as shields rather than PD?  Missile tech is pretty uncommon, but lots of civs go for lasers.  Would maybe help keep the peace but give an earlier/better signal to start with the weapons.

Either way, makes for an interesting game.  Maybe it's time for me to actually hop into one of these test games.

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November 23, 2010 7:55:29 PM from GalCiv II Forums GalCiv II Forums

Well, PD works as a category, it's just that missile weapons have to exist for the associated tech to look worthwhile to the AI.  So in a game where no missiles get invented, the AI apparently researches every military tech they can get their hands on, except Space Weapons and the stuff beyond it.  In my opinion, the aggression slider for a given race is a pretty good way of regulating their tendency to war, and I'd rather that the AI be free to pursue research that gives it a chance of winning.

Though I have to agree, it's a bit of a beamfest at the moment.  It seems I'm the oddball, firing high-velocity bullets.

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November 24, 2010 9:23:48 PM from GalCiv II Forums GalCiv II Forums

I think you can just lower the AI Value for the tech to make them less interested. It was odd to see it mislabeled but with an AI Value of 120, which is far higher than any other tech.

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November 24, 2010 10:11:26 PM from GalCiv II Forums GalCiv II Forums

Quoting Quaternus,
I think you can just lower the AI Value for the tech to make them less interested. It was odd to see it mislabeled but with an AI Value of 120, which is far higher than any other tech.

I was thinking the same thing.  The high value may actually push them toward it when you take the PD designation away.

I did read somewhere - in Carielf's guide, I think, that value had to do with trading.  I wouldn't be surprised at all to learn that it had an effect on AI research priority.

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November 24, 2010 10:37:08 PM from GalCiv II Forums GalCiv II Forums

There is a new value for trading now, called Willingness To Trade. AI Value is now just for what priority the AI places on the tech.

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November 25, 2010 4:12:43 AM from GalCiv II Forums GalCiv II Forums

Thing is though, after Space Weapons is researched the following techs have quite a low AI value, but they are categorised as Military.  So it's possible that the category has some sort of multiplicative effect when certain conditions are met.  This means that when the situation changes then the most valued tech changes too.  For example, if the economy overheats then the AI will favour techs which lead to new economic structures.

Without being put in the military category, the multiplier effect for other techs (assuming it exists) could override the strong AI value for Space Weapons.

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November 25, 2010 8:45:14 PM from GalCiv II Forums GalCiv II Forums

I tried to mod this myself.

I'm not sure if it actually worked, though. The Altarians have yet to research Space Weapons (it's early 2229) and the Terrans hadn't before I traded it to them for their economic treaty. I have yet to encounter the Thalans, Drath, or Korx. The minors haven't researched it either. However, I forgot to do the "quicksave fix" that's needed to make them non-stupid, so that may factor into it.

So far the only thing I've noticed different from a normal GalCiv game is that the Drengin have gone absolutely insane, colonizing 22 planets (more then anyone but the Terrans) and still churning out ships. There's many other aspects of the game modded and it almost certainly has nothing to do with the weapons fix. I just thought it was interesting to note.

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November 25, 2010 9:57:20 PM from GalCiv II Forums GalCiv II Forums

I did this and now no one will build colony ships. What could I have modded to cause this behavior? I reset all the AI personalities to their defaults so that can't be it.

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November 26, 2010 6:18:46 AM from GalCiv II Forums GalCiv II Forums

I don't know what would cause a lack of colony ship production.  Those can be built from the start of the game, so changing the category of a few techs isn't going to mess with that.  You should check that the computer civs have their intelligence level set properly, a lack of it might cause them to twiddle their thumbs.

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November 26, 2010 8:27:59 AM from GalCiv II Forums GalCiv II Forums

They are on Tough, so I doubt that.

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November 26, 2010 1:15:05 PM from GalCiv II Forums GalCiv II Forums

This is very interesting. Once I started looking at the tech trees, I saw many other techs that were in odd categories. For example, take a took at the Iconian tech tree--at least on my machine, many techs appeared mislabeled (e.g. Advanced Logistics is categorized as "Biological Warfare"!) Of course it's hard to know which of these are legitimate mistakes, and which were intended by the programmers as work-arounds for undesirable ai behaviors.

 

 

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November 28, 2010 12:32:52 AM from GalCiv II Forums GalCiv II Forums

Bumping this thread..

It seems worthwhile to experiment with the tech tree categories, as it's already had a big effect on my games. For example, I've always wondered why the computer Korx player doesn't research Mercenaries and Fortified Freighters (in ToA). I noticed these techs were categorized as 'trade'. I tried switching the category to  'economics', and now the ai player will get them.

There could be many more examples, we all know how buggy this game is.

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November 28, 2010 2:30:55 AM from GalCiv II Forums GalCiv II Forums

This is very interesting. It seems possible that strange tech categories may be responsible for many of Twilight's bugs, as well as the disappointing failures of some AIs to research their unique techs.

I think I'll have to download MarvinKosh's original mod though, as my attempts to replicate it have all failed.

Edit: The Iconian tech tree's categories are just bizarre. The organic hull research path is listed as "Colonization" and one mass driver tech is listed as "beam"! Other tech trees have wacky categories as well, though the Iconians are the worst.

Over the next few days I'm going to try editing all the tech trees so categories are more logical. We'll see what happens.

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November 28, 2010 6:13:44 AM from GalCiv II Forums GalCiv II Forums

Cool!  It'll be interesting to see how the AI does with the use of all its techs.

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November 29, 2010 5:15:47 PM from GalCiv II Forums GalCiv II Forums

See what kind of a can you opened here, Marvin?  Now I'm going to have to go through and start playing with the categories.

This is linking in well with my personal experience, as I only recently began even looking at all the unique tech trees.  I had only played Terran and Yor extensively before.  Now I'm using Arcean and Torian, and I've actually gone and looked at the other trees.

Good work on the Korx, Deweyjohn. Those are pretty big techs for them to not use at all.  That'll be my next change.

Keep posting results!

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December 2, 2010 1:19:06 AM from GalCiv II Forums GalCiv II Forums

I'm trying to get the Krynn ai to pursue an influence strategy, instead of just filling up every planet with generic factories and research labs as they do in ToA. On my first try I increased the ai value of all influence techs in their tech tree from 5 to 15, and increased the value of the consulate to 50 in the planetary improvements .xml. They built consulates on all their planets so that part worked, but they still didn't get JihadOfKrynn until after planetary invasion, so the research techs may need to be valued even higher, or alternatively re-categorized to trick the ai into researching those techs.

 

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December 6, 2010 3:32:03 PM from GalCiv II Forums GalCiv II Forums

So I finished up my first game with the mod.

It was a lot more fun than usual.  Everyone was hobbled by the galactic speed restriction event. The Terrans ended up owning about half the galaxy, but their military was only so awesome because of three military resources. Once I discovered all the military resources I sent my fleets to knock them out and build my own starbases on those resources.

In the end the Terrans lost because of their smug superiority.  Despite having a major advantage in research capacity, they had barely researched Laser IV when I launched my surprise attack, whereas I had already crammed some serious research in and got Pulse Cannons.  With the loss of their military resources, they could wear down my forces but not actually stop them.  They hung on for a while, researching all of the Particle Beam techs, but it did them no good because I had my ships fitted with shields in no time.

Compared with the unmodded games I had played before, it was much more challenging, even if the challenge went downhill a bit once I had control of the resources.

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December 6, 2010 9:31:38 PM from GalCiv II Forums GalCiv II Forums

Quoting MarvinKosh,
So I finished up my first game with the mod.

It was a lot more fun than usual.  Everyone was hobbled by the galactic speed restriction event. The Terrans ended up owning about half the galaxy, but their military was only so awesome because of three military resources. Once I discovered all the military resources I sent my fleets to knock them out and build my own starbases on those resources.

In the end the Terrans lost because of their smug superiority.  Despite having a major advantage in research capacity, they had barely researched Laser IV when I launched my surprise attack, whereas I had already crammed some serious research in and got Pulse Cannons.  With the loss of their military resources, they could wear down my forces but not actually stop them.  They hung on for a while, researching all of the Particle Beam techs, but it did them no good because I had my ships fitted with shields in no time.

Compared with the unmodded games I had played before, it was much more challenging, even if the challenge went downhill a bit once I had control of the resources.

I've got my own game going with this mod, plus a range-penalty mod and my minor colonization mod. It's been fairly interesting as well: I as Terrans against the Drengin, Altarians, Arceans, Torians, Yor, Thalans, Krynn, and 2 custom opponents that are effectively good Korx and evil Drath. It's definitely a change from the usual: the "Evil Drath", which have rarely done well before, are now dominating the galaxy and have teamed up with the Yor. I've formed an alliance with the good races and the Arceans to stop them, although the range penalty has cut down on the fighting.

The really memorable part, though, has been watching the minors in action. The Krynn attacked the Scottlingas early on, and the Scottlingas have been absolutely plastering them. So far they've conquered a Krynn planet and wrecked their ascension starbases, and kept colonizing while they're at it. To make things more impressive, no one else is at war with the Krynn - the Scottlingas have done it all alone.

Edit: I have to add, I'm really intrigued by the possibilities here. A lot of the stuff you can mod has no real effect on gameplay, just on graphics. This has the potential to completely alter how races make use of their tech trees.

Very interesting stuff...

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December 7, 2010 5:54:00 AM from GalCiv II Forums GalCiv II Forums

Continuing the examination of strange tech categories and AI behavior, I've just finished compiling a list of all the unique tech branches that get ignored by their respective AI. I left off the Drengin and Korath because the Drengin never do well (except in one ongoing game) and I don't play against the Korath often. I intend to see how many of these are categorized into strange categories:

  • Altarians: Pretty much the entire Xeno Mysticism branch is ignored or left until late in the game. They also ignore the Temple/Shrine branch of morale improvements.
  • Arceans: Weather Control techs and the Planetary Fortification branch leading to Cathedral of Valor.
  • Drath: Weirdly, they tend to research most of the techs they share with the Altarians that the Altarians ignore. The only thing they seem to ignore is the Divergent Evolution branch.
  • Iconians: Hoo, boy. They never research the "Advanced Weapons" techs that let them move beyond their unique weapons and into the second weapons tier. They never research "Expert Engineering" and so never get medium or larger hulls unless traded the techs. They're really slow to research their economy techs and they completely ignore the organic hull branch and the manufacturing branch that begins with Interstellar Refining.
  • Korx: As mentioned above, they ignore their unique trade techs and Mercenaries.
  • Krynn: The Krynn do tend to research the "Laws of Krynn" branch of their religious techs, but almost always ignore the "Interstellar Missionaries" and "Superior Espionage" branches.
  • Terrans: The Terrans have a fairly mundane tech tree, so they don't really mess up with it. The one weird aspect is that they research Fleet Warp Bubbles but never actually build ships with them. That's another issue, though.
  • Thalans: For such a unique tech tree the Thalans could be worse, but they do tend to ignore the various techs branching off Basic Gravitronics until late in the game.
  • Torians: The Torians are good, but they can take an awful while to research their research techs. They also ignore Nano Materials, but that's probably because they get traded the techs it's a precursor to first.
  • Yor: Stellar Streams is almost always ignored. I've also never seen them research the Manufacturing Vortex techs.

I intend to try and sort these into more logical categories. If it works, expect to see a report sometime soon.

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December 7, 2010 1:03:15 PM from GalCiv II Forums GalCiv II Forums

I wish I had more time to play with this stuff.  It's a bit weird after all this time to come back and see how the custom tech trees are pretty much broken.  I mean, we all knew Twilight was unfinished with respect to the new uniqueness of the races, but this just shows that it really never came anywhere close to what it was intended to be.  Or maybe everybody knew that and I just came back around . . .

Wait, I know.  It's just very interesting to begin seeing a reason and perhaps even a way to fix a big part of it.  It's like all these funky categories were made up but the AI was never optimized to use them.  It's about the closest we can get to a fix for TA without actually fixing the AIs.

 

Maybe I'll just pick one race to play with and see what I can do.

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