Agents - how is this a good addition?

ansury

Join Date 06/2008

Agents - how is this a good addition?

Agents suck.

Someone tell me if I'm seeing something that shouldn't happen or I'm doing something wrong. Or is there a bug here?

Still relatively early in the game, it's going fine, but all the sudden I get assaulted by about 5-6 enemy agents. I started taking them out of course, but every few turns or so I just get a few more. Meanwhile, up and up goes my cost of getting new agents. Even with spending maxed out, I still can't be rid of the infestation completely, and it's starting to kill my economy. I cannot see the logic in having the cost of each agent going higher and higher (even though I have none active).

This, on top of the fact that I liked the OLD way of doing espionage better (the sliders for each race), has me wondering what the hell people were thinking when they added this new "feature". I'll never get ahead of that curve unless I just start wiping out civilizations--and then I'd be guessing at which ones were sending agents. How is all this fun?

At first I figured, oh..agents, okay that's nice. I'll just ignore that part of the game and only send a few out when I need some intel. Nope. We can't ignore them can we?

At this point I might rather be playing the original version of the game, or maybe the 1st expansion. (Not sure if that's the one where this terrible idea was implemented.)

Before I totally regret buying the expansions (map editor was the reason and it's a huge letdown), is there any way to disable or negate the stupidity of agents? Or at least prevent the ridiculous unrealistic increase in their training cost?

Sorry for the stupid horizontal lines, for some reason the forum has decided to ignore my line breaks and that was the only way I could fix it.

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In before a flood of people agreeing with all 7 of your points, despite them being sarcastic.

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Ah, reductio ad absurdum, I haven't seen you in weeks.

Aren't you being - dare I say it - a little bit pissy that someone's disagreeing with you?

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lol

I've just been trolling for awhile now actually. I don't hate agents *that* much... hehehe. Once they fix it it'll be fine I'm sure.

Of course the basic argument (that I was fine with just the sliders) still stands. lols..

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WIllythemailboy

Join Date 03/2006

+70

The truly ironic part of your argument is that people *were* bugging Stardock to do something different with espionage. The sliders simply couldn't do enough to make espionage worthwhile. It was the equivalent of giving you control over the production slider, but not over the military/social/research sliders.

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Well whatever, I was just trolling at that point. lol

Don't know why anyone would be obsessed over such a minor part of the game though. Personally I'd rather have had more moddability built into the game (AI or diplomacy scripting?), and an accurate/useful map editor instead of the piece of junk that shipped with the expansion. It's practically useless! Especially with that "missing planet textures" bug some of us are seeing.

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Of course, it's not a minor part when you end up with thirty randomly placed spies on your worlds, or multiple civs dumping agents on you.

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thirty randomly placed spies on your worlds

That's what you fucking get for leaving mega events on.

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What's wrong with mega events? They're cool. Not really sure how that relates either.

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As I have seen, the AI is pretty smart in how it uses agents. You want to know a simple way I've found to dodge the AI's agent onslaught? Just make sure you don't have the highest military rating. As soon as you're el numero uno in offensive capabilities, they decide to take you down a notch. That is probably why you have such a problem with them.

Although, that agent mega event majorly sucks if you don't have counter-espionage centers built on every world.

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WIllythemailboy

Join Date 03/2006

+70

As I have seen, the AI is pretty smart in how it uses agents. You want to know a simple way I've found to dodge the AI's agent onslaught? Just make sure you don't have the highest military rating. As soon as you're el numero uno in offensive capabilities, they decide to take you down a notch. That is probably why you have such a problem with them.Although, that agent mega event majorly sucks if you don't have counter-espionage centers built on every world.

And this just proves that Spam is smarter than most of the people who complain about spies. Twilight throws a wrench in this, in that not everyone has CE buildings - but if you do, this is how you beat spies.

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I vote for the new spying system. With some fixes of course.

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Lavitage,

That's what you fucking get for leaving mega events on.

Do you have an actual point here? Please feel free to elaborate.

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And this just proves that Spam is smarter than most of the people who complain about spies.

What the hell does that mean?

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WIllythemailboy

Join Date 03/2006

+70

What the hell does that mean?

It means that a user named IQofSpam posted how to avoid having any significant number of spies placed on your empire, something *some* people apparently haven't figured out, seeing as they still complain about being the victim of spy spam.

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So the workaround for the broken agent system is to "not get too strong" and "build counter esp buildings on every colony, IF you even have them" (if not, yer screwed).

OK..

(roffle?)

How about this workaround: Fix the system or ditch it.

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So, have you actually been reading this thread?

Also, have you ever built counter espionage buildings on all of your planets? I have, and aside from the time to research (time taken from other technologies), they tend to cost a lot to build, which translates to taking a relatively long time to build. And, while they are a foolproof means of stopping spy attacks once they're in place, that doesn't change the fact that the way the AI spams spies on you gives it a fairly large advantage over your ability to eliminate those spies while you're trying to get those structures built.

That advantage comes from, say, 5-7 empires all dropping spies on you as soon as they train them vs. your ability to train spies to remove those spies. That's due to the fact that each agent costs more to train than the previous, and the training consumes more and more of your economy.

The fact that it's counterable doesn't change the fact that the way the system works now is flawed, nor does it mean that any particular poster is smarter than everyone else for having posted strategies that we already know about.

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WIllythemailboy

Join Date 03/2006

+70

I almost always spam CE buildings. In a high planet-count game, a couple hundred CEs are cheaper than negating spies. And I have no doubt you knew this strategy already.

I do maintain, however, that the system is working exactly as designed. Each civ has a vested interest in bringing the top guy down a peg, and spies are a relatively cheap, anonymous, short-of-war way of doing so. What conceivable reason would there be for the top civ NOT to be spammed with spies?

Spies are the price you pay for being in first place.

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Agent system works correctly?

Always knocking down the top guy using this STUPID AI spam tactic sounds almost like economic socialism (since it effects the richest race's economy so much). Also sounds like an artificial crutch for the AI to use when it can't beat you with a method that you can actually defend against. CE buildings DO NOT COUNT as a defense strategy, more like a defense cheat. They effectively disable the entire espionage system for your enemies, and not all races have them. Why even have the system if you're just going to shut it down like this anyway?

I have no problem with alien races working together against a strong enemy to bring them down. But I do have a problem if they're able to do it in such a powerful way, with the strong enemy unable to defend itself. If you don't use (or have) CE centers you are basically screwed by this system. Unless you suck and stay weak, in which case you're probably screwed by default.

And why is CE so expensive? Loss of a tile for this crap is bad enough. It could at least give a decent morale bonus or something.

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WIllythemailboy

Join Date 03/2006

+70

First, it's not the richest race that gets screwed, it's the one with the most powerful military. That's a not-so-minor distinction.

Second, CE only shuts down spying if every planet is covered, which happens rarely for a human player, and never (in my experience) for an AI.

Third, LOL:

I have no problem with alien races working together against a strong enemy to bring them down. But I do have a problem if they're able to do it in such a powerful way

You'd prefer the AI can work together against you, but only in ineffectictive ways?

The only part of that I can agree with is that not everybody getting CE sucks. That's pretty much indefensible, as CE is the best (not only) counter to spy spam.

And saving the best for last:

And why is CE so expensive?

You rip CE for being a "defense cheat" and then complain about it being too expensive? It's cheating and unbalanced, but you want to get them cheaper and with a bigger morale bonus? There's something wrong with your argument.

Oh, and a preemptive "no, you're not" for when you play the "I've just been trolling for awhile now actually" card yet again.

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Willy, the problem isn't that the AI uses agents against the most powerful military. The problem is that the price of agents ramps up dramatically as you train more, which means that you will end up in an economic death spiral if you try to maintain a strong military while defending against a constant stream of cheaper agents from the other planets. The only defense against that is the CE.

The system is good, but far from perfect.

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WIllythemailboy

Join Date 03/2006

+70

Then I guess my problem is that I see that expense as part of the upkeep on your fleet. If the physical defenses of your empire are costing you the ability to defend yourself against spies, you've overbuilt your fleet compared to your economy.

An additional bonus of letting some other poor sucker be in first is that they absorb everyone else's cheap spies. When you take the lead later in the game, the AI spy expense is closer to your own.

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Willythelittleboy:

The only good point you have was pointing out that it was the highest military rating, not economic--I was incorrectly associating the two since I see it happen often.

I never said anything close to meaning the AI should only be able to use "ineffective ways" to attack. Do not try putting words into my mouth. What I said was simply that when the AI mass assaults you like this it is TOO POWERFUL of an effect and recovering from it is too difficult. This is not an unheard of thing to observe and have fixed in a game. It's more of a balance issue, and has nothing to do with nerfing the AI which is what you seem to have tried to imply.

And CE is like a cheat because not all races have them: "...more like a defense cheat. They effectively disable the entire espionage system for your enemies, and not all races have them."

Hell I'd RATHER CHEAT and use this building just to disable this shitty, boring system. But to do so, without damaging my own civ, the only way it would be worth it is for it to have another use. It's true that making it "better" would imbalance things further for others, but I don't really give a damn, I want this whole crappy system fixed (or ignorable) as a whole and CE is part of it. Sure this isn't reasonable, but neither is your precious screwed up agent system.

Oh, and I wasn't playing any cards before, dumbass. Arguments are fun, especially when it's a fucktard like you defending a shitty system like it's perfectly okay. But wtf? I don't even have to say anything unreasonable to get you to defend this crap.

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Then I guess my problem is that I see that expense as part of the upkeep on your fleet. If the physical defenses of your empire are costing you the ability to defend yourself against spies, you've overbuilt your fleet compared to your economy.An additional bonus of letting some other poor sucker be in first is that they absorb everyone else's cheap spies. When you take the lead later in the game, the AI spy expense is closer to your own.

Did you even read what he wrote? Or are you always so militarily weak in every game that you just don't get it?

If this is to be considered the same as fleet maintenance, a defense of it cannot be UNSUSTAINABLE like it currently is. It does not take long for you to fall far behind where half your buildings are cancelled out, and you have a 20, 40, 60 week wait until the next agent is available with the training slider at MAX. You could have the #1 economy and it still won't matter, it just delays the inevitable, because the training costs escalate higher forever.

If it was as simple as taking a steady amount of BC from my treasury, I could ignore it. But it's not that simple.

So basically you're saying that to be #1 in military power, even only by a little, a fair price for that race to pay is a maxed out agent trading slider (indefinitely), and a guarantee that they will accumulate more and more agents over time. wtf? Go away.

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I play on masochistic and above and never encounter a spy problem. I simply must not have the skills necessary (Like ansury) to be the top dog militarily.

CE do kind of screw the AIs tho, they bever seem to build them so when the human does, its a major exploit for the human. This could be fixed by making the AIs build them too.

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It's probably map size related or something. I know I'd suck on a large map. Also I play the level where the AI is maxed, but doesn't get 'cheat' bonuses, so it's easier.

I don't even use agents. By building CE and never using them, the system doesn't exist for me. (It bores me.) Why is why I'd rather have the old sliders back, so I still get to HAVE intel on enemies without having to micromanage and retrain agents that die off in a round of being placed. And why do we have to place them on an enemy building? We can't just do observation and not damage an enemy's capabilities? Even allies keep tabs on allies sometimes, but they'd be stupid to damage them in the process. Agent system needs fixing bad.

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