Stardock Closed for the Holidays
Jan 5, 2015 8:45

Stardock's offices will be closed in observance of the holiday season from December 19th until January 5th, 2015.

During this time there will be a delay in answering support tickets, so we ask for your patience during the holiday period.  While we will keep tabs on the tickets during the break, we will respond to them as quickly as possible upon our return.  

On behalf of the Stardock staff we wish you a happy holiday season and look forward to the new year!

The China Post

By on May 8, 2008 5:24:39 PM from GalCiv II Forums GalCiv II Forums

Nequa

Join Date 09/2007
+14
since alot of people like to talk about China I decided to make a post about it. You can say whatever you want, but it has to be about China. Also I dont mind if you want to talk abou topics related to China, (example, Tibet, or the olympics).
242 Replies
Search this post
Subscription Options


Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
May 8, 2008 5:44:11 PM from GalCiv II Forums GalCiv II Forums
Does Chinese Water Torture count? Dripping water on your forehead is super annoying...
Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
May 8, 2008 5:52:19 PM from GalCiv II Forums GalCiv II Forums
Does Chinese Water Torture count? Dripping water on your forehead is super annoying...


Sure go ahead, just dont get to graphic. The children may hear ( !
Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
May 9, 2008 7:43:26 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums
Chinese Water Torture is about as Chinese as Chinese Whispers (childrens game for those who don't know) or Chinese Finger Traps. Besides, it is an ineffective torture and pales in comparison to waterboarding.
Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
May 9, 2008 8:37:25 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums
Aaaaaand here comes ignorance about foreign countries!
Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
May 9, 2008 9:11:39 AM from GalCiv II Forums GalCiv II Forums
Aaaaaand here comes ignorance about foreign countries!


Yeah...this thread is not going to end well.
Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
May 9, 2008 9:53:12 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums
Aaaaaand here comes ignorance about foreign countries!Yeah...this thread is not going to end well.


Um, if ya give me enough time I will attempt to go and create the most ignorent remark I can about China, but first I need to contact a few people over there to make sure that I do not inadvertently make a remark that is factual.
Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
May 9, 2008 10:27:58 AM from GalCiv II Forums GalCiv II Forums
Aaaaaand here comes ignorance about foreign countries!


According to the Chinese calendar, I was born in the Year of the Snake...
Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
May 9, 2008 10:39:31 AM from GalCiv II Forums GalCiv II Forums
Aaaaaand here comes ignorance about foreign countries!Yeah...this thread is not going to end well.


That is what you say, maybe it will go well. And Piznit was just trying to be funny, and people will grow up and post mature stuff.
Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
May 9, 2008 11:28:19 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums
The most effective form of torture currently is tasers
Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
May 9, 2008 12:10:54 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums
The most effective form of torture currently is tasers


I disagree, the most effctive form of torture is marrage.
Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
May 9, 2008 12:37:46 PM from GalCiv II Forums GalCiv II Forums
I hope for your sake that your wife doesn't take a sudden interest in your hobby and start reading these forums.
Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
May 9, 2008 12:41:32 PM from GalCiv II Forums GalCiv II Forums
Ok, I think somebodys marrige is not related to china. Plese stay on topic.
Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
May 9, 2008 12:43:06 PM from GalCiv II Forums GalCiv II Forums
Hi Nequa. Thank you for creating a thread which is perhaps a bit more appropriate for me to posting in than the 'America Superpower thread'. I was having a troubling time staying on topic I'll post in here from now on.

Nfeldav made a comment in the American superpower thread that in admist the howling on Tibet on both sides, there's not so much news on what 'the average Tibetan' thinks. I completely agree.

As mentioned, I'm Han, I'm Chinese and I live in Beijing. The difficulty in asking what the 'average Tibetan' thinks is the same as asking what an average American thinks of Hillary Clinton. A lot of differenting ideas and opinions.

Our local media often has programs saying that all Tibetans are really happy with the government and none of us here really completely believe that. So I'm going to offer my personal thoughts. I've been Tibet, I can't claim any Tibetans as a close friend and I frequent a local Tibetan club near my apartment about once a month.

Most of the Tibetans in Beijing I talk to think the modern government is relatively good. They are young, entreprenuerial and filled with dreams of a bright successful sexy future. They don't want to be farmers like the four generations before them. They don't want to eat lentils and goat cheese every day. They like being able to take running water and fresh fruit for granted. They like broadband wireless internet. They want to be the next China Idol or learn salsa and be on our version of Dancing with the Stars. They like big cities, nightclubs, shopping malls and this is what the new government has brought.

There is another much smaller group of Tibetans in Beijing that like the modern government not so much for the glitz and bells, but rather for the opportunity for education. This group believes that Tibet should grow and develop. It needs better infrastructure, social security, health care... running water, flushing seweage etc. And most importantly - it needs more sophisticated leadership. The village elder might be good for arbitrating between two neighbours fighting over a chicken, but Tibet needs better leadership to grow. The current Han government is okay - and they are more or less, better educated than local Tibetans which means they at least can handle economics, macro-planning etc. But ideally, there should be Tibetan political leaders, business leaders, judges. etc. Tibetans need to go to University, return from Harvard, travel the world and come back to Tibet to lead. The present government gives such opportunities, scholarships, international exchange programs etc. - and despite its faults should be credited for such. I have a huge amount of respect for this group - for they have pride in being Tibetan as I do in being Han.

Inside Tibet, there is a young middle upperclass that thinks the modern government is good because of the economic development. Finally, there is a hope and future for the development of the region.

There is an older generation that laments that all this fancy new internet and Mercedes Benz stuff comes with drugs, prostitution and tobacco. Things were better in the good old days. This group also probably feels threatened by a Han dominated government and a whole bunch of Han people arriving. Why suddenly is the language that I've spoken all my life no longer the language of my region? How can I be expected to learn this 'Mandarin' at 65 years old? Universities are places that suck my son away from the family run tea-house. And I put up with this so I can 'check my email'? I don't even own a computer nor do I want one. I can understand how that could be threatening.

And there is a disillusion, disenfranchised, disenchanted lower class that has trouble finding jobs, staying out of jail. This group wants to screw the police, screw authority, screw the government. Free drugs, free sex and free Tibet. As vocal as they are, I don't think they really hate China as such - they hate the position they are in and they find targets on which to vent their frustation. I would imagine the solution is not so much to lock them up, but to improve the position of the lower class. I would suggest that you saw this group a lot on CNN in the past couple of weeks.

Then there is a group I have no experience with at all - the exiles. I don't know enough about this group to meaningfully comment. I also don't know any Tibetan monks or people that claim to follow the Dalai Lama so I can't comment on them.

My thoughts


Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
May 9, 2008 1:53:05 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums
It's great that you realized your government control media isn't telling you the whole truth. The only thing now is to keep that independent thought and perhaps shape the government to a better one. One that truely serves the people, not high ranking/corrupt government officials.

Better environment protocols for the factories, so less pollution, better healthcare. By cutting out the corruption or increasing the price of factory goods just a tiny bit allows you to put in place better pollution controls.

I just have a problem with the current Chinese government or any "power hungry" government in the world that so paranoid with power and control. Even when lawyers utilized the current Chinese laws to combat land reform tactics that leave the people with meager compenstations are prosecuted or retaliated against.
The government is so paranoid of control they fear and destroy any significant group establishment whether religious, politicial, or human rights. What I'm trying to say is to share that power. Somethings are much more efficiently done, than governments can ever dream of. For example, the blood distribution in America are done by the Red Cross and Carter bloodcare. Both are non-profit, non-government entities that make enough money to pay for it own expenses. For a pint of blood Carter charges the hospital around $91, the publicly funded government hospital buys it and turns around to charge Americans $300.

Basically, a lot of things run a lot more efficient with the business model, the only problem is when the business model DOESN'T INCLUDE ETHICS and MORALITY. People are not human resources to be disgard and replaced with more healthy ones when the fumes and conditions in the factors make them sick.

When Hurricane Katrina occured in Lousianna, where there is a huge community of Vietnamese fishermen, none of them appeared on TV pleading for the slow government help, because with local Vietnamese newspapers, radios broadcast, the churches/temples and volunteers in the surround states step in and help them.

So hopefully, the Chinese People can change and improve their government for the better.
"Those who control the flow of information, controls the freedom."
"The price of freedom is eternal vigilance." - THomas Jefferson.
Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
May 9, 2008 1:55:37 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums
First, "Chinese water torture", with proper restraint, and sensory deprivation is considered to be an effect form of torture.

Second, the Chinese have the longest recorded (written) history in the world. It encompasses about 1000-2000 years, a majority of which is Civil War. The Chinese were the first to invent the crossbow, and a repeating weapon (Cho Ko Nu). I believe they were also the first to use a type of land mine.

The Chinese also have had two of the most well preserved mummies, of which both had fully flexible limbs, all internal organs intact (brain included), and skin near the same "feel" of living skin.

Does this suffice?
Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
May 9, 2008 2:37:31 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums
One that truely serves the people, not high ranking/corrupt government officials.


Rather than our corrupt western governments that only line their own and big businesses pockets...?
Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
May 9, 2008 6:23:25 PM from GalCiv II Forums GalCiv II Forums
Rather than our corrupt western governments that only line their own and big businesses pockets...?


Capitalism and communism both have their ups and downs. With the Republican party in control, capitalism becomes bad. When a government like the soviets and china comes to power, communism is bad. Sometimes I think to have a better society, it may be best to have a tiny bit of communism mixed with a lot of capitalism. That way the ecomony can stay free, but big business can be controlled better. But remember, the way things work out depends on political parties (which in my opinion should be outlawed, they don't get any thing but except cause arguments)

China and the Soviet Union didn't take communism for what it meant: everyone being equal. Their governments now elevate themselves over the common people, and oppress them. The only thing about true communism that they used was that the government is in control of all property.

You also have to remember that the guy who created communism, Karl Marx, was not an evil man. He wrote his communist papers during the 1890/1900's era, where factory workers were treated horribly by the factory owners, who lived like royalty when their workers lived in tiny houses with over five people to a room. The guy was simply trying to make everyone equal. Lenin, Stalin, and Mao Zedong misinterpreted what communism met, and screwed it up bad.

But in the end, pure communism doesn't work. Thats what caused the Soviet Union to break up. China communist dictatorship will end soon. People's Republic, HAH!

I believe that, despite its very few faults, capitalism will eventually be the ecomony system. Countries such as Vietnam are now half-and-half.

Etrius
Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
May 10, 2008 12:39:43 AM from GalCiv II Forums GalCiv II Forums
Thank you Darkstar7 for your comments. I hope you will permit me to respond to some things you said which raised my interest.

It's great that you realized your government control media isn't telling you the whole truth. The only thing now is to keep that independent thought and perhaps shape the government to a better one. One that truely serves the people, not high ranking/corrupt government officials.


i) I think any media - government controlled, privately owned, American or Chinese is not going to tell "the whole truth". Simply by reporting something as news, that item is cast as newsworthy and important. Why report on Tibet, Darfur and Zimbabwe, but not other places where I respectfully submit things are just as important or bad or significant. Then there's the way something are reported - I note that the difference between a terrorist, a freedom fighter, a matyr and a guerilla warrior seems to be whose reporting the story.

ii) I sense that overseas, there's the perception that the Chinese government has Mind Control Centers beaming images of big brother Mao into our lounge rooms every day (does that mean China will never influence flip?) With respect, we have more independent thought than we are given credit. As mentioned in the America superpower thread, we have been writing letters to editors, blogging, criticising politicians, holding community participation meetings, calling talkback radio for a long time - and continue to do so. We criticise XXX party official for being corrupt, we blame YYY government member for not responding to ZZZ issue. Jump into a taxi and hear the latest news on how China should be changed. We are not immediately shot if we don't bow down to the Chairman Mao idol that is supposedly on even street corner or write something not 110% positive about China on a website.

iii) You point out that our government should be shaped into a better one. I completely agree. Most Chinese would completely agree. Our own government would completely agree. In many ways, it's bloated, it's overly bureaucratic, it sometimes is not in touch enough with common people, it has corruption etc.

I don't think Chinese people or the Chinese government has ever claimed we are perfection. So we need to change. There's another post where I mentioned some of the changes going through our government right now (reduction of the need to be a party member to hold senior ranks in government or public sector jobs, appointment of non-Party members to key portfolios like health and technology, intentional appointment of dissenting voices to top government positions). I agree that the change is frustratingly slow. But it is happening. Perhaps we don't talk about it enough in the media - but then again, in terms of priority - I am happy to see my government putting a priority on changing, rather than a priority on talking about change.

I just have a problem with the current Chinese government or any "power hungry" government in the world that so paranoid with power and control. Even when lawyers utilized the current Chinese laws to combat land reform tactics that leave the people with meager compenstations are prosecuted or retaliated against.
The government is so paranoid of control they fear and destroy any significant group establishment whether religious, politicial, or human rights. What I'm trying to say is to share that power.


You might be referring to photos of sad old ladies defending their dumpling house from big tractors bulldozing their gardens. You raise a good point. Property development has been out of control here for the past decade - and the poor have certainly suffered so the rich can have their swimming pools and golf club memberships. I myself have contributed to the local media in the voice against rampant real estate development.

But the thing I might query here is it seems that:

i) In America, if someone is hit by a police officer, it's police brutality. In China, it's the bad government.

ii) In America, if someone has their house bulldozed by developer, it's immoral capitalistic development companies. In China, it's the bad government.

iii) In America, if someone pollutes a river, it's the uncaring greedy chemical company. In China, it's the bad government.

Real estate development has become far more regulated, controlled and requiresment of compensation, resident consultation etc. are more enforced then they have been before. Are some residents still bullied? Certainly, but less than before. I see improvement in the way the government is handling things. Improvement that is never credited in international media.

So hopefully, the Chinese People can change and improve their government for the better.


We're trying. And to be fair, the government is responding. I have confidence in my government. As I keep saying, it's not perfect and I comment frequently locally about what needs to be changed. But it's not as bad as it's made out to be. To tie things back to the beginning of this post and the comment about media - we never believe that China is as heaven as it's made out to be by our media; so I query why other's believe China is as hell as it's made out to be by your media.

I'm sorry if this post is too aggressive - it's meant to be responding, not accusing. I do often feel that the China I read about in the international news, blogs and forums is very much not that China that I live in every day.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
May 10, 2008 7:56:36 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums
Ok, I think somebodys marrige is not related to china. Plese stay on topic.


mightygoobi is (hopefully) going to be arranging for me to go to China and examine the theory that the Chinese do not like sex. (To disprove it). He is going to become a pimp... so, if I have any luck I will end up with a Chinese wife.. Would that make my marriage related to China at that point?

  

@mightygoobi

If you sir, are reflective of how a significant number of the people of China think. Then we in America have a lot to fear from you, because with the resources China has at its disposal you (china) could unleash a level of social, political and industrial ideas and practices that would push America aside.

(in case when your translating this you miss it the “have a lot to fear remark is made as “tongue and cheek”)

Oh and another thing, Al Sharpton came to Philadelphia right after I was talking to you the other night, he came the very next day in fact..
Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
May 10, 2008 11:59:57 AM from GalCiv II Forums GalCiv II Forums
GeneralEtrius, I hope you will permit me to comment on something you wrote:

China and the Soviet Union didn't take communism for what it meant: everyone being equal. Their governments now elevate themselves over the common people, and oppress them. The only thing about true communism that they used was that the government is in control of all property.


China communist dictatorship will end soon. People's Republic, HAH!


As I understand, the accepted wisdom is that China's government "oppresses" us. We are lacking in human rights, rule of law. It is hoped that one day the Chinese common folk will throw off the shackles of oppression and rise up against the evil dictatorship of China who rule China with an iron fist.

I hear and read this position a lot in western Press. One place such though is infrequently though, is inside China.

As mentioned GeneralEtrius, I am Chinese and live in Beijing. I regularly complain in local forums about some law that was passed that I disagree with, some government action that I found outrageous, some local environmental issue that upsets me.

But I never feel oppressed or shackled or downtrodden. I recognise that governing a country of 1.3 billion can't be easy. I don't think the government is doing a 100% perfect job, but I don't think they are doing a bad one.

I have a job. I can get educated. I don't have enough money to buy my own place, but my rent is reasonable. On weekends, I go to bars to get drunk with friends or force my girlfriend to watch the Lakers vs. Cavaliers game with me or go to the library to research my PhD. I'm saving my money to take a holiday in Australia. I eat well - and I wish I had a bit more money to spend on computer games.

It's better here in China now than 10 years ago. 5 years ago. Last year. And I have a feeling that it will be better tomorrow than it is today. And our not perfect government should be credited for that.

If our life was as bad as it's made out to be in western press, I suspect they'd be a great deal more uniform dissatisfaction and unrest in China. If the government REALLY was that bad, wouldn't we all hate it?

There are 3 potential reasons why I might be saying all this:

1. Mightygoobi is lying. I've seen all the news reports on TV. China is a horrible place and the government is EVIL.

You're right that western press paints a pretty dim view of life here. And China does a terrible job of responding. But think - if the ONLY news you ever got about America was from Rev. Al Sharpton, Rev. Jeremiah Wright and Jon Stewart, how would you see America? I humbly suggest then that this is sort of what I feel when I see the international press on China. It's ALL bad. It's all the BADEST of the BAD. If BBC does an interview with 1000 Chinese citizens and 999 say China is nice and 1 says her brother was tortured by the police, who gets newstime?

As I keep saying, we do have lots and lots and lots of problems here. But we do some things right too.

2. Mightygoobi is a brainwashed drone of the Communist Party. See what they are doing to their youth? The whole country is BRAINWASHED!

I guess this could be true. But we are constantly criticised for having a government which is backward, corrupt, inefficient and inept. And yet this is the same government that can wipe the minds of 1.3 billion people?

3. Mightygoobi posts far too frequently and passionately in this forum. He's obviously a Communist propaganda agent or government official.

It's true that I have suddenly been posting far more here than I ever intended. I guess I do feel passionate about talking about my country. Now - this forum is a Stardock forum on Galactic Civilizations 2. I suspect that this forum is not the top priority for the Chinese Propaganda and Secret Service.

So I respectfully argue a fourth point - that maybe China is not tha bad.

I do respect your point of view GeneralEtrius and given the level of English media prowess that my government has, I understand why you have that view. I just wanted to suggest that the Chinese government and life here in China is not as bad as it's made out to be.




Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
May 10, 2008 12:09:41 PM from GalCiv II Forums GalCiv II Forums
mightygoobi is (hopefully) going to be arranging for me to go to China and examine the theory that the Chinese do not like sex. (To disprove it). He is going to become a pimp... so, if I have any luck I will end up with a Chinese wife.. Would that make my marriage related to China at that point?


I learned the words 'pimp' and 'hoes' from watching WWF on payTV. There was a character called the Godfather who used the words a lot. As far as I could tell, he wasn't really talking too much about finding a wife. I guess my English really is bad.   

(in case when your translating this you miss it the “have a lot to fear remark is made as “tongue and cheek”)


My dictionary comes up with a pretty strange definition for 'tongue and cheek'. I presume from context that you mean 'I'm joking'.

If you have watched your news, you'll note that no one in China ever smiles or laughs and we were dark green khaki overcoats and hats with red stars all the time. Therefore, I am not able to understand your attempt at humour.

If you sir, are reflective of how a significant number of the people of China think. Then we in America have a lot to fear from you, because with the resources China has at its disposal you (china) could unleash a level of social, political and industrial ideas and practices that would push America


More seriously, I'm no smarter or dumber than other Chinese - I'm just able to write English better. Actually, my frequent posting here in Stardock has meaning that I posting less my local forum. My absence has been commented and I have been writing about my experiences here. One response is "Americans don't understand!" "American media is biased!" "Americans hate us!"

I agree that Americans don't understand us. But wailing about it in our own language, in our own forums is not going to help. If Americans don't understand us, then surely it should be up to us to make ourselves understood.



Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
May 10, 2008 12:41:43 PM from GalCiv II Forums GalCiv II Forums
I agree that Americans don't understand us. But wailing about it in our own language, in our own forums is not going to help. If Americans don't understand us, then surely it should be up to us to make ourselves understood.


Wow, that speaks to me. Seriously.

It is true that China is getting more advanced with economics. It seems that as you said, people lives are improving. However, you have to look at Tibet. The Communists seem to be opressing the people in Tibet. Its a crackdown all over again.

Mightgoobi: You say you have a good life in China, and I believe you. Hardly anyone really supports the Communist party, they just go with the flow these days. You have to remember that many people are poor because of the Communist party. However, a person I know is an economist, so I know about the status in China. The government my be getting lighter, compared to, say, North Korea, but it is still Communism. This government will eventually fall. Nothing lasts forever.

Etrius
Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
May 10, 2008 12:59:07 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums
The Chinese have since 2005 managed to remove over 400,000 people from poverty. Granted, in a country of 1.3 billion people, that number might seem small - but the number is steadily growing, and the far-flung regions of China are slowly recieving their due amount of attention and infrastructure. These are the signs of a fairly well organized government. Not the best - but then again, no government is the best.

The Chinese people are extremely proud, and they have the right to be. Their civilization is ancient and has truly endured more than most of the older civilizations today. The Chinese as a people might seem arrogant, but I have yet to encounter one chinese person who actually IS arrogant - and hence I am perplexed as to where this comes from.

I think the greatest problem that foreign press has is the fact that it cannot separate the concepts of the Chinese people and the Chinese government. The actions of the Chinese government, both the good and the bad, do not necessarily represent the beliefs of the Chinese people. Equating those two is a dangerous mistake.

The west blames China for its actions in Darfur - but the west messed up Iraq.

In the end, in this world there are only human beings - people who are selfish, greedy, noble, kind, stupid, intelligent, and it truly matters not where you are from, because in the end we're all the same
Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
May 10, 2008 2:50:33 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums
@mightygoobi

Yes I was meaning 'as a joke' more accurately I was spouting things that could be said by people who have an opposing point of view but making it obvious that I did not really think or believe what I was saying.

It is a style of speech that is difficult to convey in writing as the words say one thing but ones tone and body language say another and it is the tone and body language that are to be used to convey the real message.

oh not that anyone is intrested but on another thred someone called me a neo-con!
Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
May 11, 2008 11:31:39 AM from GalCiv II Forums GalCiv II Forums
Spacepony:

Appreciate your kind words. Actually, I was also trying to be 'tongue and cheek'. I think I failed. Humour is one of the most difficult traits to master about a foreign language. So I go to the universal language of the smiley   

I'm sorry - I don't quite understand the word neo-con. I googled it and became more confused. However, I am concerned about turning a proper 'China' thread into a 'let's teach goobi English' thread - so feel free to PM me
Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
Stardock Forums v1.0.0.0    #108432  walnut2   Server Load Time: 00:00:00.0000828   Page Render Time: