Bingjack

Join Date 02/2006

+10

[TA Beta1] The Proliferation of Global Passive Bonuses

It would seem there’s a much larger number of researchable passive bonuses (+x military, +y social/econ/pop/morale, etc.) in the tech trees, especially in the drengin tree (though I haven't looked at the other two as closely).

On top of this, it seems an easy matter to go shopping for the techs from the other civs that provide even more bonuses ( many of which stack), and layer those on top of your own. It seems by about midgame, you're swimming in so many bonuses, from tech and trade, the base power of your infrastructure tiles are far less important.

Is this by design? Have the general starting abilities of the races been adjusted downward, to allow for them picking up so many boosts along the way? Or is the intention to make all the races more powerful across the board, relative to DA?

Just trying to get a feel for the intent.

Thanks!

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The Drengin planetary improvements are quite weak though. There industry and research buildings in particular. Also they dont have a culture starbase brach or power plant branch.

Whether there balanced compared to the base tech tree is questionable, there def the coolest race from the 3 so far imo. There slow colonisation start could poss make them a weak race though the global bonuses will help them get back into the game. Hope the super sucky corvettes will be changed eventually.

Would be nice to know what Stardocks intentions are must admit, beta2 having more races to see the patern will poss give the answer.

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Alstein

Join Date 07/2004

+55

The Drengin can always farm the needed techs from a minor. Game I played I farmed Impulse Drives from a minor race, added that to my bonuses, ended up with really fast ships, then went on a rush spree with fast medium hulls.

Can't wait to see what the other races bring, but part of me wonders if Stardock is going too fast with the beta. I actually wouldn't mind them taking more time and adding only one race a week, and concentrating more on bugfixes/balance tweaks as needed.

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It's not only a Derngin phenomenon though. All the races seem to have somewhat more of these bonuses compared to DA/DL...the Drengin just seem particularly blessed with them, especially in regards to all the easy population growth bonuses they get. Admittedly, their factory units are gimpy, take a long time to research, and I don’t begrudge them +military bonuses to compensate.

Any of the races can also trade( or conquest) for one or two techs with significant stacking bonuses from the other races. The Drengin can pick up "planetary improvements" pretty easily, which is yet another big 10 to all production across the board, you can get War Rooms from the Arceans, etc. Some of the techs replace another one, but some do indeed stack with what's already there. I see everyone already making their shopping lists of techs to get from each civ to make them an "uber" race.

I just wanted to know if there was a balance factor put in for all these new bonuses that I'm not aware of. For instance, maybe the races are starting at an even lower capacity by default than they were before, or maybe a +10 bonus to something somehow isn't worth what it was in DA. Before, even a +10 bonus to anything made a clear impact across the board, and people generally raced to get these "freebies" where they were available, the sooner to start benefiting.

Truth be told, I like all the gifts throughout the tech tree, it makes it feel like you’re really getting something for your research, much more often. But I'm aware that the power curve for the races is potentially much greater than it was in DA/Dl, and just want to get an idea if that's intentional or not, before I start critiquing.

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Frogboy

Join Date 03/2001

+2419

Overall, the races will be more powerful than they were in Dark Avatar.

Because of the memory increase, we can let players have more "stuff" in a given game.

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I'm not sure if race specific techs should be able to be traded or perhaps even conquest stolen. If they can be it might be quite easy to abuse eg a race could get super factories/labs not normally open to them or huge global bonuses. "uber" racing would be a rather cheesy way to win imo.

I'm def in favour of the racial tech tree bonuses though(negatives could be considered also). It's a great way to create differences between the races which adds longevity to the game.

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Has it ever been considered to make the racial bonuses "base" level bonuses, in that all other bonuses multiply on top of them?

This would make a +10% racial bonus much more meaningfull. As it is now they get overwhelmed by all the other bonuses.

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I noticed that the Drengin are a stable colonizer. Since the slace centers and black markets are cheap to run(especially the black markets, they have 0 upkeep) they have a fairly easy job of maintaing out of debt for a while. I like the black merkets, but unfortunately there is no black market level two or whatnot

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I'm def in favour of the racial tech tree bonuses though(negatives could be considered also).

Drengin get negatives. Their "factories" have a -influence effect.

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Drengin get negatives. Their "factories" have a -influence effect.

I meant global negatives as well eg -10 military production. If there were to be any they would prob have to be quite rare and the tech would have to be worthwhile obtaining even though there was a negative bonus. It would be a reflection that not all technological advancements are without a penalty to society(s) in some circumstances.

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there's another major drawback to the drengins that hasn't yet been mentionned and imo explains why they should have more passive bonuses:
the drengin get less mining modules than other races since their slave pit techs don't give mining modules just improvements. At most the drengin can get a +19% from a mning ressource if i remember well where the other races end up getting much more once they max out the factory techs. in the 30 40% range but correct me if i am wrong (which i probably am)

In fact i believe that for the sake of balance the drengins should get even more passive bonuses. They already have an efficient and rather cheap industry (slave pits etc..) have many passive reaserch bonuses but have really a tough job on the economy, the moral and the influence issues. (which is normal for the drengin)

Right now with three races they do fine because their cheap industry lets them get a strong military start and they can storm either the terrans or the arceans for extra worlds. I don't know however how they will balance out wih more enemies on larger galaxies where mining ressources is more important and games last longer. They lack middle to end game passive bonuses. Either a second level of black market or some kind of economic bonus or maybe a wonder that would give them free or cheaper military production would be usefull concerning this.

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Drengin get negatives. Their "factories" have a -influence effect.

I don't think this is something you can succesfuly force on a player. Its one thing to sort of bundle a drawback in one of their buildings, in the back end, like the drengin -influence. Even if the difference in the end is only psycological, learning a new tech is something youre supposed to feel good about getting. Putting a flat penalty as a result for just getting a new tech is a big sign saying "Don't research this", and if you make it unavoidable, like putting it in the manufacturing branch, it then becomes a sign saying "Don't play this race".

It would be a far better idea to start some races with a score penalty as part of their racial identity to balance some of the bonuses they get, and let them work their way out of that hole by gaining bonuses. Players always need to feel like they're gaining things as they "level up".

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Hi!

It would seem there’s a much larger number of researchable passive bonuses (+x military, +y social/econ/pop/morale, etc.) in the tech trees

That sounds good. I already complained about bonuses from galactic resources - they too much unbalance the game, because there's not much bonuses a player can get from other sources, technology being the main one.

On top of this, it seems an easy matter to go shopping for the techs from the other civs that provide even more bonuses

That's IMO bad. Race-specific techs should simply not be obtainable, or they'll unbalance the game too much, creating uber-races. It is true that this is a single-player game, so nobody is hurt by that, but some balancing IMO should apply.

BR, Iztok

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I think I would agree that race-unique techs should either be not tradable or at least be hugely valued by the AI and require an arm and a leg to trade for.

Being able to trade for race-specific techs allows you to get around the inherent uniqueness of the races (For example, playing Arceans and trading for a Terran engine techs = scary)... it should not be something that is as simple as a few clicks in the diplomacy window and a bit of cash to do.

Also, I think that if you trade for a tech that your race has a different version of, you should get your races version of it. Just because that better maintains racial uniqueness.

...Has it occurred to anyone that we are already debating about "keeping the races unique" as if its a central concept to the game, despite the fact that wasn't even relevant in Dark Avatar?

This is why I love TA.

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I don't think unique racial techs related to a building should be tradeable...I think the racial buildings are too tied in to identity and balance. I think some unique race techs should be tradeable, just to keep diplomacy interesting.

However, "shopping for bonuses" is not neccesarily a problem with the unique techs only. "Planetary Improvements" isnt all that unique (except to the drengin), but it's easily aquired by them, and another fat +10 to all production types across the board, on top of their own wealth of early game easily teched bonuses.

I'm not sure whether it's an actual problem yet, but I can see the cheese potential. One thing I will say, is that the game is definitely seems a tad easier so far in TA...all the quick bonuses make it easier to get ships and buildings out, and some of the easily availiable population and econ bonuses early in the drengin tree have greatly reduced the pressure I feel to get maxed out in government and ethics to boost my economy. Never even got around to building MCC last game.

I'm not complaining about that either...I always thought it was just a little to hard to avoid the early game crash in DA/DL, and just a little too hard to maintain your economy during conquest, without building the cheesy MCC. I'll need to play through all the trees some more, and be able to play against more than two opponents to get a feel for how different things really are.

I guess the feeling I'm getting right now is caution, because while I'm loving all the freebies, I'm not getting attached to them. Part of me suspects its too good to be true, and you cant just arbitrarily throw all these in without throwing something out of wack somewhere else.

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I know once i get TA(after the betas) i would love an option to still allow regular tech trading but not allowing unique techs from being traded also.

So two trade options!
-Disable Tech Trading
-Disable Unique Tech Trading

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I think TriPp has the right idea, that's definately an option I'd like to see.

Giving the player more choices is always a good thing, I think.

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I don't think unique racial techs related to a building should be tradeable...I think the racial buildings are too tied in to identity and balance. I think some unique race techs should be tradeable, just to keep diplomacy interesting.

However, "shopping for bonuses" is not neccesarily a problem with the unique techs only. "Planetary Improvements" isnt all that unique (except to the drengin), but it's easily aquired by them, and another fat +10 to all production types across the board, on top of their own wealth of early game easily teched bonuses.

However, you should be able to steal techs from spying and invasions. What would be the use of getting complete espionage on a race if you wouldn't get the occasional unique tech?

I do agree with you though, the techs that make a civ different from the other one, shouldn't be traded. If you are allowed to do this, you should have an alignment dilemma. Even if you have xeno ethics you would have to make a choice.

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